Can someone help me understand the front office's offseason logic at the CB position?

[mastershake]

So we start the offseason with Banks, Flott, and Tre Hawkins remaining on the roster, with one of two starting CB's Adoree Jackson becoming a free agent:

- Flott and Tre Hawkins aren't good enough to start or even be nickel/rotational CBs, but we're going to keep them along for the ride anyway. Tre Hawkins was so bad last year that QB's passed 25 for 30 for over 300 yards and 4TDs against him that he got benched, and from then forward rarely to played a defensive down again.

- They give Nick McCloud, who played well at times, but is ultimately inconsistent and in reality is a 'Back end of the roster' 4th or 5th CB type guy a $3M contract.

- We resign Darney Holmes, another back end of the roster type guy at best for...reasons. We now have four back end of the roster types on the roster with Flott, Hawkins, McCloud, and Holmes.

- They then draft Dru Phillips in the 3rd round, with the #70th pick, a fairly premium draft pick.

- We then bring in journeyman, trash heap/practice squad caliber free agents like David Long Jr and Tre Herndon for....reasons. We now have six back end of the roster CBs.

- We get to training camp. To no-ones surprise but this Giants front office....the six back end of the roster CBs all play like back end of the roster CBs, and are lousy throughout camp and preseason. Meanwhile, aparently the rookie Dru Phillips isn't good enough to start or be a nickle back either, and MAY be joining the ranks of Sam Beal, Aaron Robinson, and Flott to see which Giants 3rd round CB can bust out faster.

- Somehow Schoen scrambles restructures existing contracts to free up $12M in cap space this year, while pushing that $12M in cap hits to the future. We sign no-one.... yet...apparently we're going to wait until next week, when other teams cut players, to find our (checks notes)..... "solution" at the 2nd CB and nickel CB spots?

Someone please make it make sense.

[BlueInCanada]

No free agent DB worth his salt wanted to come here (because we didn't have the money) and the remaining guys wouldn't move the needle in the slightest for wins/losses, such as Jackson. 

The entire season rides with Jones.

If he plays well (Oline mostly) then we probably have a decent year.

He plays bad or gets hurt and DiVito starts (probably in large part to the Oline) then it's probably another top 10 draft pick for us.

No free agent DB would change this fact, and even the assistant GM we brought oven from the Eagles is saying the Giants are riding with the young kids.

I'm starting to think we see Dabs and Schoen in the unemployment line come February when the Jones experiment fails like it has been since year two. 

And we move onto our........fifth? rebuild.

Baring some sort of fucking miracle play from Jones and average play from the Oline. 

Not many successful franchises are built on the back of a 6th year QB unknown and an talent void roster after three season to draft and try to find talent. 

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, BlueInCanada said:

No free agent DB worth his salt wanted to come here (because we didn't have the money) and the remaining guys wouldn't move the needle in the slightest for wins/losses, such as Jackson. 

The entire season rides with Jones.

If he plays well (Oline mostly) then we probably have a decent year.

He plays bad or gets hurt and DiVito starts (probably in large part to the Oline) then it's probably another top 10 draft pick for us.

No free agent DB would change this fact, and even the assistant GM we brought oven from the Eagles is saying the Giants are riding with the young kids.

I'm starting to think we see Dabs and Schoen in the unemployment line come February when the Jones experiment fails like it has been since year two. 

And we move onto our........fifth? rebuild.

Baring some sort of fucking miracle play from Jones and average play from the Oline. 

Not many successful franchises are built on the back of a 6th year QB unknown and an talent void roster after three season to draft and try to find talent. 

The entire season rests on Jones and I'd add the DL/Pass rush it seems too. This secondary is going to be leaky if the pass rush isn't there. That 5 year $150M going to Burns and the 2nd rounder, a top 50 pick, we gave up is going to look awful if teams are moving the ball up and down the field all day on this secondary.

[Sephiroth]

We have to start to consider the possibility that Joe Schoen is not a good GM.

[Mr. P]

Philips is a bust before the first game of his rookie season?

 

 

lol this place is in mid-season form. 

[Sephiroth]

12 hours ago, mastershake said:

So we start the offseason with Banks, Flott, and Tre Hawkins remaining on the roster, with one of two starting CB's Adoree Jackson becoming a free agent:

- Flott and Tre Hawkins aren't good enough to start or even be nickel/rotational CBs, but we're going to keep them along for the ride anyway. Tre Hawkins was so bad last year that QB's passed 25 for 30 for over 300 yards and 4TDs against him that he got benched, and from then forward rarely to played a defensive down again.

- They give Nick McCloud, who played well at times, but is ultimately inconsistent and in reality is a 'Back end of the roster' 4th or 5th CB type guy a $3M contract.

- We resign Darney Holmes, another back end of the roster type guy at best for...reasons. We now have four back end of the roster types on the roster with Flott, Hawkins, McCloud, and Holmes.

- They then draft Dru Phillips in the 3rd round, with the #70th pick, a fairly premium draft pick.

- We then bring in journeyman, trash heap/practice squad caliber free agents like David Long Jr and Tre Herndon for....reasons. We now have six back end of the roster CBs.

- We get to training camp. To no-ones surprise but this Giants front office....the six back end of the roster CBs all play like back end of the roster CBs, and are lousy throughout camp and preseason. Meanwhile, aparently the rookie Dru Phillips isn't good enough to start or be a nickle back either, and MAY be joining the ranks of Sam Beal, Aaron Robinson, and Flott to see which Giants 3rd round CB can bust out faster.

- Somehow Schoen scrambles restructures existing contracts to free up $12M in cap space this year, while pushing that $12M in cap hits to the future. We sign no-one.... yet...apparently we're going to wait until next week, when other teams cut players, to find our (checks notes)..... "solution" at the 2nd CB and nickel CB spots?

Someone please make it make sense.

This is also the year you're supposed to start seeing production out of your 2022 draft, but if you look at that draft there's very few starters.   

Thibodeaux - has shown flashes
Neal - literally unplayable
Robinson - pretty good when healthy
Ezeudu - literally unplayable
Flott - literally unplayable
Bellinger - pretty good, and good value
Belton - borderline unplayable
McFadden - has shown flashes
Davidson - ok
McKethan - literally unplayable
Beavers - likely cut

Not only was this a below-average draft, but we had to spend resources on positions (EDGE, OL, LB, Safety) that otherwise could have gone to shore up other weak spots on the team because there were so many misses. 
 

[mastershake]

30 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

This is also the year you're supposed to start seeing production out of your 2022 draft, but if you look at that draft there's very few starters.   

Thibodeaux - has shown flashes
Neal - literally unplayable
Robinson - pretty good when healthy
Ezeudu - literally unplayable
Flott - literally unplayable
Bellinger - pretty good, and good value
Belton - borderline unplayable
McFadden - has shown flashes
Davidson - ok
McKethan - literally unplayable
Beavers - likely cut

Not only was this a below-average draft, but we had to spend resources on positions (EDGE, OL, LB, Safety) that otherwise could have gone to shore up other weak spots on the team because there were so many misses. 
 

And if they're banking their entire defensive pass game on the Brian Burns move, while leaving the CB position unaddressed, things could get real dicey real fast.

I mean, I hope they guy puts up like 15+ sacks, and him and Thibs get 30+ in total, but the odds that we have our Osi/Tuck/Strahan combo are unlikely.

[mastershake]

1 hour ago, Mr. P said:

Philips is a bust before the first game of his rookie season?

 

 

lol this place is in mid-season form. 

I don't get how other teams with good GMs land starting or at least nickel caliber CB's in the 2nd, 3rd, or later rounds, and they're ready to start/contribute right away or close to right away, and we draft guys with those premium draft slots who aren't ready, and then we're scrambling at the end of the preseason to backfill starting CB positions on the roster.

[Sephiroth]

40 minutes ago, mastershake said:

I don't get how other teams with good GMs land starting or at least nickel caliber CB's in the 2nd, 3rd, or later rounds, and they're ready to start/contribute right away or close to right away, and we draft guys with those premium draft slots who aren't ready, and then we're scrambling at the end of the preseason to backfill starting CB positions on the roster.

This is what happens when you reach on Cordale Flott when Leo Chenal is still on the board, then opt to reach again for DJ Davidson when Zyon McCollum is available. 

I know Schoen didn't have "his guys" in the scouting department yet when he made that draft but I'm a high school teacher watching all-22 film and I made better picks than him.  Dude had one fucking job and he blew it that year. 

Also, Hard Knocks was not encouraging; going into the draft saying "we need this position" is a recipe for disaster. 

I'm not ready to give up yet but this is not encouraging. 

[mastershake]

1 minute ago, Sephiroth said:

This is what happens when you reach on Cordale Flott when Leo Chenal is still on the board, then opt to reach again for DJ Davidson when Zyon McCollum is available. 

I know Schoen didn't have "his guys" in the scouting department yet when he made that draft but I'm a high school teacher watching all-22 film and I made better picks than him.  Dude had one fucking job and he blew it that year. 

Also, Hard Knocks was not encouraging; going into the draft saying "we need this position" is a recipe for disaster. 

I'm not ready to give up yet but this is not encouraging. 

My problem with that too was not having a Plan B, i.e. to bring in some veteran free agent if the draft didn't go the way you wanted.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

15 hours ago, BlueInCanada said:

No free agent DB worth his salt wanted to come here (because we didn't have the money) and the remaining guys wouldn't move the needle in the slightest for wins/losses, such as Jackson. 

The entire season rides with Jones.

If he plays well (Oline mostly) then we probably have a decent year.

He plays bad or gets hurt and DiVito starts (probably in large part to the Oline) then it's probably another top 10 draft pick for us.

No free agent DB would change this fact, and even the assistant GM we brought oven from the Eagles is saying the Giants are riding with the young kids.

I'm starting to think we see Dabs and Schoen in the unemployment line come February when the Jones experiment fails like it has been since year two. 

And we move onto our........fifth? rebuild.

Baring some sort of fucking miracle play from Jones and average play from the Oline. 

Not many successful franchises are built on the back of a 6th year QB unknown and an talent void roster after three season to draft and try to find talent. 

I think Dabs will get another season... but please... PLEASE... let this be DJ's last season with the Giants.  Most of the problems lead back to having at best a second string college QB from Duke no less at the wheel for now six FUCKING YEARS... Dave Brown...checks notes... lasted three FUCKING YEARS... time to move on.  With another three years of at best mediocrity till we remove the stench (nothing personal) of DJ.  No one wants to come here... get fucked up... for half of the money they could get losing elsewhere to be on the same team as DJ.  I know I would not.  These guys have to maximize their 2-10 years with the NFL.  If I was one of them fuck DJ and his lack of development.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

2 hours ago, mastershake said:

I don't get how other teams with good GMs land starting or at least nickel caliber CB's in the 2nd, 3rd, or later rounds, and they're ready to start/contribute right away or close to right away, and we draft guys with those premium draft slots who aren't ready, and then we're scrambling at the end of the preseason to backfill starting CB positions on the roster.

Winning is contagious... for a lot of players you have to be already good... come in and contribute until you take over.  Here you have to be all world and hope to play at a decent level... there is little to no infrastructure here right now.

[TaylorBanksCarsonVanPelt]

1 hour ago, Sephiroth said:

This is what happens when you reach on Cordale Flott when Leo Chenal is still on the board, then opt to reach again for DJ Davidson when Zyon McCollum is available. 

I know Schoen didn't have "his guys" in the scouting department yet when he made that draft but I'm a high school teacher watching all-22 film and I made better picks than him.  Dude had one fucking job and he blew it that year. 

Also, Hard Knocks was not encouraging; going into the draft saying "we need this position" is a recipe for disaster. 

I'm not ready to give up yet but this is not encouraging. 

 

1 hour ago, mastershake said:

My problem with that too was not having a Plan B, i.e. to bring in some veteran free agent if the draft didn't go the way you wanted.

Listen as a big boss I had a perfect plan A, then a good plan B, and a keep it going plan C.  I mostly had plan C's with an occasional plan B.  I think I had two plan A's during my whole career.  Like me you guys are planners and believe in insurance policies in life.  The overly optimistic are like my Old Man financially... going forward with wishes and prayers as if they were certainties instead of wishes and prayers.  Let's just say that most of my Old Man's financial thinking did not plan out.  I have told my girls that me and the Ex Battle Ax are trying to create generational wealth starting with you that would carry on for your generation, that of your children and grand children.  Our time as parents have come and gone.  It is now you and your coming generations that are the focus.  The Giants need this type of thinking so bad.  The current Mara is not the guy to bring this about I believe.

[CrazedDogs]

On 8/25/2024 at 9:08 PM, mastershake said:

So we start the offseason with Banks, Flott, and Tre Hawkins remaining on the roster, with one of two starting CB's Adoree Jackson becoming a free agent:

- Flott and Tre Hawkins aren't good enough to start or even be nickel/rotational CBs, but we're going to keep them along for the ride anyway. Tre Hawkins was so bad last year that QB's passed 25 for 30 for over 300 yards and 4TDs against him that he got benched, and from then forward rarely to played a defensive down again.

- They give Nick McCloud, who played well at times, but is ultimately inconsistent and in reality is a 'Back end of the roster' 4th or 5th CB type guy a $3M contract.

- We resign Darney Holmes, another back end of the roster type guy at best for...reasons. We now have four back end of the roster types on the roster with Flott, Hawkins, McCloud, and Holmes.

- They then draft Dru Phillips in the 3rd round, with the #70th pick, a fairly premium draft pick.

- We then bring in journeyman, trash heap/practice squad caliber free agents like David Long Jr and Tre Herndon for....reasons. We now have six back end of the roster CBs.

- We get to training camp. To no-ones surprise but this Giants front office....the six back end of the roster CBs all play like back end of the roster CBs, and are lousy throughout camp and preseason. Meanwhile, aparently the rookie Dru Phillips isn't good enough to start or be a nickle back either, and MAY be joining the ranks of Sam Beal, Aaron Robinson, and Flott to see which Giants 3rd round CB can bust out faster.

- Somehow Schoen scrambles restructures existing contracts to free up $12M in cap space this year, while pushing that $12M in cap hits to the future. We sign no-one.... yet...apparently we're going to wait until next week, when other teams cut players, to find our (checks notes)..... "solution" at the 2nd CB and nickel CB spots?

Someone please make it make sense.

I’m not saying this is good sense, but it seems the plan is to win with pass rush and play match ups on the backend. Not much in the way of reliable starters back there, but they are a varied group; man specialists, zone specialists, a few different guys we’ll see at nickel. They’re going to mix it up a lot and hope they have enough reliable guys that it makes up for not having any good guys. 
 

It’s worked before. Our 2007 defense was all pass rush and playing matchups.

 

 

 

[Sephiroth]

[BlueInCanada]

To be fair.

The Giants have been one of the worst franchises in the NFL the past 10+ years

Expecting it to change is just shenanigans.

Bad teams stay bad in the NFL. 

[Mr. P]

 

[mastershake]

12 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

 

Nice. It only took them till the end of training camp to get an obvious deal done.

[Sephiroth]

14 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

 

 

1 minute ago, mastershake said:

Nice. It only took them till the end of training camp to get an obvious deal done.

This does make me feel a lot better. Adoree might return to form if there's less "business decisions" this year.

[Mr. P]

He looked bad last year. 

[jranieli]

9 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

He looked bad last year. 

better than what we had. 

[CrazedDogs]

44 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

He looked bad last year. 

I wonder if they waited until after camp for Jackson for culture reasons. His on field effort last year was meme worthy, but he’s a good player. Bring him back, but do it late in the process so he’s a locker room afterthought, not a mentor.

[Mr. P]

1 hour ago, CrazedDogs said:

I wonder if they waited until after camp for Jackson for culture reasons. His on field effort last year was meme worthy, but he’s a good player. Bring him back, but do it late in the process so he’s a locker room afterthought, not a mentor.

or they missed out on the guys they actually wanted on the waiver wire, so they had to fall back to him. 

[CrazedDogs]

42 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

or they missed out on the guys they actually wanted on the waiver wire, so they had to fall back to him. 

I'd heard on one of the Giants fan podcasts that the Giants didn't even submit any waiver claims except the one they got.

Leading up to the cutdown, they sure acted like they expected someone worthwhile to shake loose. Oops.

[Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, CrazedDogs said:

I'd heard on one of the Giants fan podcasts that the Giants didn't even submit any waiver claims except the one they got.

Leading up to the cutdown, they sure acted like they expected someone worthwhile to shake loose. Oops.

Anita Marks and Paul Dottino used to trot out the "somebody will shake loose!" line during the Hark Herzlich/Spencer Paysinger era of Giants linebackers.

Even Joe from Pennsylvania (who is dumb as a post) would call in to tell them that hoping for a player not good enough to make another roster to be a starter... was not a winning formula.