Why has Big Blue's personnel department not been held accountable?

[Nas]

I totally agree with this:

 

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2014/01/giants_links_why_has_giants_personnel_department_not_been_held_accountable.html

 

 

As the Giants jettisoned two more longtime assistant coaches on Wednesday – tight ends coach Mike Pope and running backs coach Jerald Ingram, we’re wondering when, or if, anyone in the team’s personnel department is going to take the fall for the team’s recent failures in the draft and in free agency that led to a 7-9 finish this season.

The coaching purge has also claimed offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride and it’s becoming more and more apparent he was essentially fired along with Pope and Ingram although the Giants dressed up the move by calling it a “retirement.”

Why is Pope, who coach Tom Coughlin called the best tight ends coach in the business, taking the blame for the disappointing performance of tight end Brandon Myers, who was signed primarily as a pass catcher but was then asked to be a big-time blocker? Was it Pope who didn’t want to re-sign former Giants tight end Martellus Bennett, whom he turned into an elite player?

How is it that Ingram has to pay the price for the endless parade of injuries at the running back position? Did he all of a sudden forget how to coach? Was it his fault the Giants couldn’t run a simply screen pass this season?

It's hard to imagine professional and loyal coaches like Pope and Ingram couldn't adjust to whatever new offensive coordinator Ben McAdoo wanted.

What we'd like to know is who is responsible for the train wreck that was the offensive line? Who thought guard James Brewer could play? Who went to bat for guard Brandon Mosley? Who pushed for the signing of center David Baas in free agency? Who decided left tackle Will Beatty was worth a five-year, $38 million contract?

We'd like to know why the Giants hadn't been able to find a playmaking linebacker until the Panthers gave them a gift in Jon Beason?

As reported in The Star-Ledger, just one player drafted in the third-round or later from 2008 to 2010 remains with the team (running back Andre Brown). Who is responsible for that? Mid-round picks are the lifeblood of NFL teams.

Yes, general manager Jerry Reese has won two Super Bowls, but for the organization to lay this entire mess at the feet of the coaching staff seems unfair. They didn't pick the players; they just coached the players they were given.

[Bigblue25]

I've said it too. We signed/drafted multiple players who don't fit the system and then blamed the coaches for not making them fit.

[Sephiroth]

I'd disagree that Martellus Bennet became an "elite" player under Pope, but he did become a competent one (finally). Otherwise this guy pretty much nails it. Pope and Flaherty are considered some of the best position coaches in the business.

 

Gibride, on the other hand, had to fucking go. I'm tired of hearing from apologists, "well, the team scored more points with him than at any point in team history." Yeah, name me ONE franchise that hasn't "scored the most points in team history" over the past five years. Turns out, when you're not allowed to hit the quarterback or receivers, you score the most points in team history... go figure.

 

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the Giants make some moves with their scouts as well. The season only ended two weeks ago for us.

[gmenroc]

I think that the scouting department/GM are on short notice too, but that's a major overhaul that I don't think they'd want to do when they still have a franchise QB who isn't as bad as his 2013 stats would indicate.

 

GM change equates to blowing it up and starting from scratch. Another year or two of poor results and we'll be there, especially given we'll be picking in the top half of the draft.

[TrashTalker92]

Yeah i really like Pope as the TE coach... who the hell is Ballard??... Boss is garbage after he left NY.

[Pizan]

2 SBs in the last 7 years can save a lot of jobs. But are the right guys being held accountable? I don't think so.

[fringe]

That article is all over the map. Does the scouting dep't recommend a big contract for Beatty or the signing of established players like Bennett? I don't think so. For me, there are 2 people to blame- Reese and Coughlin- and they'll both be here next year so we won't see much difference. Personally, I think Coughlin is the bottleneck in the progress. We won't see until he's gone.

I agree Bennett was not elite, merely competetent.

As far as the "system" goes, I don't think that's it. Otherwise, you'd see the players we let go do well on other teams that use them right. Players we let go don't do much anywhere.

[JMFP]

I totally agree with this:

 

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2014/01/giants_links_why_has_giants_personnel_department_not_been_held_accountable.html

 

 

Holy shit, it's like this dude has been reading my mind.

[Nas]

That article is all over the map. Does the scouting dep't recommend a big contract for Beatty or the signing of established players like Bennett? I don't think so. For me, there are 2 people to blame- Reese and Coughlin- and they'll both be here next year so we won't see much difference. Personally, I think Coughlin is the bottleneck in the progress. We won't see until he's gone.

I agree Bennett was not elite, merely competetent.

As far as the "system" goes, I don't think that's it. Otherwise, you'd see the players we let go do well on other teams that use them right. Players we let go don't do much anywhere.

Bennett should've been used more.,, he was pretty good. The article is pointing out that Reese and his staff should bear some of the blame ...

[Herc]

we've had some bad luck with the injuries but the drafts have been pretty disasterous and out of the 4 guys (if you wanna count jpp and pugh) that we've actually hit on in the first round 1 is leaving and the other one is going into a contract year with no extension.

[fishgutmartyr]

When is the best time to replace scouts?

 

I guess you could try to replace Ross now, but what if the entire structure is falling apart? Aren't we in the middle of things for the upcoming draft, and we would be limiting what we would know of the players come April?

 

I'm not defending anyone, I'm curious. It might be easier to get good personnel after the draft. A good scout probably wouldn't want to jump ship for a lateral move right now--and if he did, would you want him?

 

They might be biting the bullet on this draft, and be planning an overhaul in April/May. This isn't the same thing as a team dumping a GM/coach, where you are starting exactly at zero.

 

I'm not quite at the same spot some of you guys are, since a ton of players we drafted were good and wound up out of the league due to injuries, but I see where you are coming from, and understand how bad these drafts appear when we look at what's left outside of the injuries. There's definitely a failure in the system. I'm just not sure what it is, or where.

 

Right now, changing up the front office might be the same as changing coaches mid-season. At least it seems that way to me.

[Tempest]

When is the best time to replace scouts?

 

I guess you could try to replace Ross now, but what if the entire structure is falling apart? Aren't we in the middle of things for the upcoming draft, and we would be limiting what we would know of the players come April?

 

I'm not defending anyone, I'm curious. It might be easier to get good personnel after the draft. A good scout probably wouldn't want to jump ship for a lateral move right now--and if he did, would you want him?

 

They might be biting the bullet on this draft, and be planning an overhaul in April/May. This isn't the same thing as a team dumping a GM/coach, where you are starting exactly at zero.

 

I'm not quite at the same spot some of you guys are, since a ton of players we drafted were good and wound up out of the league due to injuries, but I see where you are coming from, and understand how bad these drafts appear when we look at what's left outside of the injuries. There's definitely a failure in the system. I'm just not sure what it is, or where.

 

Right now, changing up the front office might be the same as changing coaches mid-season. At least it seems that way to me.

 

I agree

 

Other thing to consider is we are also victims of our own success in winning two super bowls.

[JMFP]

When is the best time to replace scouts?

 

I guess you could try to replace Ross now, but what if the entire structure is falling apart? Aren't we in the middle of things for the upcoming draft, and we would be limiting what we would know of the players come April?

 

I'm not defending anyone, I'm curious. It might be easier to get good personnel after the draft. A good scout probably wouldn't want to jump ship for a lateral move right now--and if he did, would you want him?

 

They might be biting the bullet on this draft, and be planning an overhaul in April/May. This isn't the same thing as a team dumping a GM/coach, where you are starting exactly at zero.

 

I'm not quite at the same spot some of you guys are, since a ton of players we drafted were good and wound up out of the league due to injuries, but I see where you are coming from, and understand how bad these drafts appear when we look at what's left outside of the injuries. There's definitely a failure in the system. I'm just not sure what it is, or where.

 

Right now, changing up the front office might be the same as changing coaches mid-season. At least it seems that way to me.

 

 

I think the problem is our GM, not our scouts.

 

For example, here is James Brewer's Scouting Report.

 

Pros: He's an extremely large man.

 

Cons: Has problems against speed rushers. Has problems against bull rushers, despite his huge size. Has trouble run blocking.

 

Seriously, that was the fucking scouting report. If you don't believe me, go to CBS Sports.com or any other resource that a complete fucking amateur like myself had access to when I was scouting players for my fantasy football draft.

 

The problem we have, in my opinion, is a GM that is still living off the 2007 draft. Reese hasn't done any heavy lifting since he's been here, and even now, he has an easier job than most of the GMs in the NFL.

 

Teams are looking to replace head coaches, and find QBs capable of winning Super Bowls. When Reese stepped into the job, that was already there, along with a young, talented offensive line, and a dominant defensive line, plus a solid running attack with Brandon Jacobs.

 

Yeah, Reese had a great draft 7 years ago......since then, every year I feel like I'm watching Jack and the Magic Beanstalk.......except the Magic Beans don't work for Reese.

[fishgutmartyr]

 

 

I think the problem is our GM, not our scouts.

 

For example, here is James Brewer's Scouting Report.

 

Pros: He's an extremely large man.

 

Cons: Has problems against speed rushers. Has problems against bull rushers, despite his huge size. Has trouble run blocking.

 

Seriously, that was the fucking scouting report. If you don't believe me, go to CBS Sports.com or any other resource that a complete fucking amateur like myself had access to when I was scouting players for my fantasy football draft.

 

The problem we have, in my opinion, is a GM that is still living off the 2007 draft. Reese hasn't done any heavy lifting since he's been here, and even now, he has an easier job than most of the GMs in the NFL.

 

Teams are looking to replace head coaches, and find QBs capable of winning Super Bowls. When Reese stepped into the job, that was already there, along with a young, talented offensive line, and a dominant defensive line, plus a solid running attack with Brandon Jacobs.

 

Yeah, Reese had a great draft 7 years ago......since then, every year I feel like I'm watching Jack and the Magic Beanstalk.......except the Magic Beans don't work for Reese.

 

That's the draft--you're actually blaming Reese for Mark Ross' responsibility. 2007 was the last draft that Reese was primarily in charge of. Say Mark Ross is Reese's responsibility, and the argument ends; but it's the draft scouting that really needs to be looked at.

 

Although with time, I'm beginning to appreciate Accorsi's ability to find decent free agents.

[JMFP]

 

That's the draft--you're actually blaming Reese for Mark Ross' responsibility. 2007 was the last draft that Reese was primarily in charge of. Say Mark Ross is Reese's responsibility, and the argument ends; but it's the draft scouting that really needs to be looked at.

 

Although with time, I'm beginning to appreciate Accorsi's ability to find decent free agents.

 

I disagree there....I imagine there are scouts looking at players, and the GM pulling the trigger based upon his assessment of team needs as well as his own judgment on the players available.

 

And like you said, free agency is entirely his bag.

 

But, if some scout looked at James Brewer and saw some sort of dominant guard, I'd like to try whatever they were smoking, and yeah, that scout should be fired.

[fishgutmartyr]

 

I disagree there....I imagine there are scouts looking at players, and the GM pulling the trigger based upon his assessment of team needs as well as his own judgment on the players available.

 

And like you said, free agency is entirely his bag.

 

But, if some scout looked at James Brewer and saw some sort of dominant guard, I'd like to try whatever they were smoking, and yeah, that scout should be fired.

 

Actually, i don't think we're disagreeing at all. Honestly, I don't.

 

That scout should definitely be fired. I agree.

 

But I would like you to keep in mind that in my opinion, 2005 was one of the best off-seasons I've ever seen. No matter how it ended, Pierce, MacKenzie and Burress gave us a ton of value for the money. Accorsi was masterful in free agency. The draft was impeccable:4 picks resulting in 3 multi-year starters/core players--with Moore ending up a starter elsewhere. And the guy who was giving him the information he needed for the draft was Reese. Accorsi made the final calls, but it was based on information Reese gave him.

 

Reese, like Accorsi before him, has to concern himself with contracts for the active roster, the practice squad, and the guys on IR. He's got to look at potential free agents, draft choices, and picking players from other practice squads. And do it all under the cap. There's no way Reese can invest the time in the draft that he did when he was the head of scouting.

 

The GM has to rely on his head of scouting to compile the information he needs. Bad information results in bad picks. The GM might have an idea of positions that need to be selected, but if the scouting says there's better value at that draft spot outside of those positions, it's difficult to overrule it.

 

Reese hasn't had his 2005 free agency yet--he's been hit or miss, although the Canty/Rolle deals weren't as bad as people say. And god knows Accorsi had his stinkers, too. And after many more years of experience.

 

Reese will get better. But he needs to ditch Ross. We're both waaayyy over our depth here, but that's what it looks like to me.

[Gman329]

Exactly. No GM can fix/upgrade every position anytime they want. Reese knew he was rolling the dice on getting one more year out of an aging OL but all those factors you mention - mostly the cap - made that the best option. It blew up in his face but it's not like he passed on a bunch of better options.

 

Fish, looks like you could get your wish with Ross:

 

http://www.sportsmedia101.com/newyorkgiants/2014/01/14/new-york-giants-vp-of-player-evaluation-marc-ross-to-have-second-interview-with-buccaneers/

[fishgutmartyr]

Exactly. No GM can fix/upgrade every position anytime they want. Reese knew he was rolling the dice on getting one more year out of an aging OL but all those factors you mention - mostly the cap - made that the best option. It blew up in his face but it's not like he passed on a bunch of better options.

 

Fish, looks like you could get your wish with Ross:

 

http://www.sportsmedia101.com/newyorkgiants/2014/01/14/new-york-giants-vp-of-player-evaluation-marc-ross-to-have-second-interview-with-buccaneers/

 

Actually, this is exactly what I don't want. The more time Tampa takes to make up its mind, the later in the FA/draft season it will be if we have to replace him. And how much energy is he spending on our draft at the moment?

 

If I were Reese, I'd be furious right now.

[Gman329]

Good point but then again, Ross' name has been in the rumor mill the last few off seasons, so they must have somebody in place, shadowing him, ready to step in.

[fishgutmartyr]

Good point but then again, Ross' name has been in the rumor mill the last few off seasons, so they must have somebody in place, shadowing him, ready to step in.

Believe me, I hope you're right.