HOUND Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 There's been a lot of griping about our first round draft choice this year. Most critics point to our already deep well of talent at the Defensive End position as argument against drafting Kiwanuka. Others who have warmed to the pick defend it as simply a case of taking the best player available. Prior to the draft several messageboard draftniks defended the concept of taking best player available, which is why I was so surprised at the negative reaction to the Kiwanuka pick. The Giants shrewdly traded down a few picks but remained in position to draft a quality player. By picking up extra selections it allowed them to later trade up and aggressively select WR Sinorice Moss. Now the one thing most everybody seems to agree with was that trading back was a solid move on our part. There didn't appear to be a player that appealed to us (unless you wanted RB/WR in the first) so moving back a few slots and collecting 2 picks has been well recieved. However once Kiwi was chosen, the concensus reaction was negative. I think posters need to put this draft in perspective before deciding to bash the pick. Dating back to 1996, the player the Giants have spent their first pick on has addressed a need. 96 - DE Cedric Jones 97 - WR Ike Hilliard 98 - SS Shaun Williams 99 - LT Luke Petitgout 00 - RB Ron Dayne 01 - CB Will Allen 02 - TE Jeremy Shockey 03 - DT William Joseph 04 - QB Philip Rivers (traded for Manning) 05 - CB Corey Webster In every year the Giants were fortunate in that a player they were high on, who also carried a 1st round grade, just happened to be available, at that selection. In multiple years we even traded up to address a need. Philip Rivers could be viewed as an exception but I think you could still make an argument that there was a need at QB. We'd seen the best of Collins, he wasn't cheap, and we were in position to draft a franchise QB. I'd still say that draft fit in line with addressing need as opposed to taking Best Player Available. But pretty much every year, it wasn't much of a surprise who the Giants were targeting. The pick was predictable. So this year, we went way off course and took a talented guy at a position that wasn't a priority. Mistake? Maybe. Or could it also be a result of the overall team being far better than recent years and thus the need to plug holes wasn't nearly as urgent. In that scenario the front office has the luxury of picking talent not position. However it's also worth noting that this is the first time in MANY years that the highest rated players at our areas of biggest need didn't match up with our draft positioning. There simply wasn't a Defensive Tackle or a cornerback that was worth the position we were drafting from. Or the prospect that was available came with character or off-field concerns, something the Giants have taken much more seriously of late. So you can look at this a couple of ways. First, we've gotten much better as a team. In previous years we had so many holes to fill it was easy to find a highly rated player at a need position simply because we had a lot of needs. That's no longer the case. Second, we simply found ourselves in a position where there was a player who was far too talented to pass up. His selection was likely made easier by the fact that there wasn't a "need guy" appropriate at the spot. Lastly, maybe we were unable to find another trade partner that would've allowed us to drop even further back so we took the best guy on our list. In every scenario, I think the good outweighs the bad. For those that want to simply bash the decision based on our postional depth, I'd ask, did the Saints make a mistake drafting Reggie Bush? They already had a franchise running back, who had signed a contract extension a year ago and isn't close to retirement. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush (you could make the same argument there with Domanick Davis) and the Saints followed it up by drafting Mario Williams. Would that have been a mistake by New Orleans? They've got gaping holes throughout their roster. However the one position they appear set at is Defensive End with Charles Grant and Will Smith. In both cases, both teams would've been effectively taking Best Player Available and few would've criticized them for it. Yet around here, where the starter at the position has maybe 2 effective years remaining, people react as if the sky is falling. I simply think people need to step back and take a much broader view of the selection as well as our recent draft history. *edited to fix '03 draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Grimes Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I think you could probably make an arguement that some of those players were also BPA's and fit a need position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmiwinks Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 There's been a lot of griping about our first round draft choice this year. Most critics point to our already deep well of talent at the Defensive End position as argument against drafting Kiwanuka. Others who have warmed to the pick defend it as simply a case of taking the best player available. Prior to the draft several messageboard draftniks defended the concept of taking best player available, which is why I was so surprised at the negative reaction to the Kiwanuka pick. The Giants shrewdly traded down a few picks but remained in position to draft a quality player. By picking up extra selections it allowed them to later trade up and aggressively select WR Sinorice Moss. Now the one thing most everybody seems to agree with was that trading back was a solid move on our part. There didn't appear to be a player that appealed to us (unless you wanted RB/WR in the first) so moving back a few slots and collecting 2 picks has been well recieved. However once Kiwi was chosen, the concensus reaction was negative. I think posters need to put this draft in perspective before deciding to bash the pick. Dating back to 1996, the player the Giants have spent their first pick on has addressed a need. 96 - DE Cedric Jones 97 - WR Ike Hilliard 98 - SS Shaun Williams 99 - LT Luke Petitgout 00 - RB Ron Dayne 01 - CB Will Allen 02 - TE Jeremy Shockey 03 - QB Philip Rivers (traded for Manning) 04 - CB Corey Webster In every year the Giants were fortunate in that a player they were high on, who also carried a 1st round grade, just happened to be available, at that selection. In multiple years we even traded up to address a need. Philip Rivers could be viewed as an exception but I think you could still make an argument that there was a need at QB. We'd seen the best of Collins, he wasn't cheap, and we were in position to draft a franchise QB. I'd still say that draft fit in line with addressing need as opposed to taking Best Player Available. But pretty much every year, it wasn't much of a surprise who the Giants were targeting. The pick was predictable. So this year, we went way off course and took a talented guy at a position that wasn't a priority. Mistake? Maybe. Or could it also be a result of the overall team being far better than recent years and thus the need to plug holes wasn't nearly as urgent. In that scenario the front office has the luxury of picking talent not position. However it's also worth noting that this is the first time in MANY years that the highest rated players at our areas of biggest need didn't match up with our draft positioning. There simply wasn't a Defensive Tackle or a cornerback that was worth the position we were drafting from. Or the prospect that was available came with character or off-field concerns, something the Giants have taken much more seriously of late. So you can look at this a couple of ways. First, we've gotten much better as a team. In previous years we had so many holes to fill it was easy to find a highly rated player at a need position simply because we had a lot of needs. That's no longer the case. Second, we simply found ourselves in a position where there was a player who was far too talented to pass up. His selection was likely made easier by the fact that there wasn't a "need guy" appropriate at the spot. Lastly, maybe we were unable to find another trade partner that would've allowed us to drop even further back so we took the best guy on our list. In every scenario, I think the good outweighs the bad. For those that want to simply bash the decision based on our postional depth, I'd ask, did the Saints make a mistake drafting Reggie Bush? They already had a franchise running back, who had signed a contract extension a year ago and isn't close to retirement. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush (you could make the same argument there with Domanick Davis) and the Saints followed it up by drafting Mario Williams. Would that have been a mistake by New Orleans? They've got gaping holes throughout their roster. However the one position they appear set at is Defensive End with Charles Grant and Will Smith. In both cases, both teams would've been effectively taking Best Player Available and few would've criticized them for it. Yet around here, where the starter at the position has maybe 2 effective years remaining, people react as if the sky is falling. I simply think people need to step back and take a much broader view of the selection as well as our recent draft history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUND Posted May 5, 2006 Author Share Posted May 5, 2006 I think you could probably make an arguement that some of those players were also BPA's and fit a need position Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot. Thats true ! I will say this speaking of william joseph without clancy or a vet FA william joseph will be closely watched with a microscope!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlintm Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Very true ... I always laugh when I hear people criticize the selection of William Joseph. That was just about the easiest, no brainer pick, EA ever had to make. I think Hank the Angry Dwarf could've come out of the '03 draft with Willaim Joseph at the Giants slot. Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick: 25. William Joseph 26. Kwame Harris 27. Larry Johnson 28. Andre Woolfork 29. Nick Barrett 30. Sammy Davis 31. Nnnamdi Asomugha 32. Tyler Brayton 33. Eric Steinbach 34. Boss Bailey OLB 35. Charles Tillman 36. Eugene Wilson 37 Jon Stinchcomb 38 Al Johnson 39 Rashean Mathis 40 E.J. Henderson 41 Bennie Joppru 42 Ken Hamlin 43 Pisa Tinoisamoa 44 Taylor Jacobs 45 Bethel Johnson 46 Drayton Florence 47. Karika Mitchell 48 Kris Kelsey 49. Eddie Moore 50. Bruce Nelson 51 Terry Pierce 52. Chaun Thompson 53. Victor Hobson 54. Anquaan Boldin 55. Bryan Scott 56. OSI UMENYIORA He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateb Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick: 25. William Joseph 26. Kwame Harris 27. Larry Johnson 28. Andre Woolfork 29. Nick Barrett 30. Sammy Davis 31. Nnnamdi Asomugha 32. Tyler Brayton 33. Eric Steinbach 34. Boss Bailey OLB 35. Charles Tillman 36. Eugene Wilson 37 Jon Stinchcomb 38 Al Johnson 39 Rashean Mathis 40 E.J. Henderson 41 Bennie Joppru 42 Ken Hamlin 43 Pisa Tinoisamoa 44 Taylor Jacobs 45 Bethel Johnson 46 Drayton Florence 47. Karika Mitchell 48 Kris Kelsey 49. Eddie Moore 50. Bruce Nelson 51 Terry Pierce 52. Chaun Thompson 53. Victor Hobson 54. Anquaan Boldin 55. Bryan Scott 56. OSI UMENYIORA He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity. Good point, aside from Boldin and Johnson in that group, there is no one I'm really that too high on at least as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parlintm Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Good point, aside from Boldin and Johnson in that group, there is no one I'm really that too high on at least as of now. Thats the point. And this is even a few years after the draft. 95% of those guys will never make it in the league so to have a solid starter and a pro-bowler is pretty solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUND Posted May 5, 2006 Author Share Posted May 5, 2006 Yeah, I actually think that the '03 draft was one of his best. Here are the picks from our round 1 pick to round 2 pick: 25. William Joseph 26. Kwame Harris 27. Larry Johnson 28. Andre Woolfork 29. Nick Barrett 30. Sammy Davis 31. Nnnamdi Asomugha 32. Tyler Brayton 33. Eric Steinbach 34. Boss Bailey OLB 35. Charles Tillman 36. Eugene Wilson 37 Jon Stinchcomb 38 Al Johnson 39 Rashean Mathis 40 E.J. Henderson 41 Bennie Joppru 42 Ken Hamlin 43 Pisa Tinoisamoa 44 Taylor Jacobs 45 Bethel Johnson 46 Drayton Florence 47. Karika Mitchell 48 Kris Kelsey 49. Eddie Moore 50. Bruce Nelson 51 Terry Pierce 52. Chaun Thompson 53. Victor Hobson 54. Anquaan Boldin 55. Bryan Scott 56. OSI UMENYIORA He got two of the best players out of that entire group. The '03 draft was pretty thin in talent and to come away with Osi and WJ was pretty good. For those that forget, WJ was low-mid 1st round talent that dropped to us. He was clearly the BPA at the position of greatest need. To pick anybody else would have been sheer stupidity. That's sorta what I'm saying. In just about every draft, our first rounder was a no brainer. We had a need, the player in that position was among the highest rated. It simply made sense. This is the first year in a long time where that hasn't been the case. I really think that's the bulk of the reasoning behind the negative reaction but I'mt trying to point out, that it's not a reason to be upset. In this draft, I think we'd have more reason for anger is we had actually chased a position. Would several of you have preferred Kelly Jennings, CB, Miami instead? Not only would we have been falling victim to a run at the position (that would've been the 5th corner taken in the top 25), I don't think it's a stretch to say that Kiwanuka is the far more talented player and has a much higher upside. I don't even think Jennings should've been selected in round 1. Instead we got the guy who many had as the 2nd rated Defensive End. I really can't be upset about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barens Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I didn't mind adding another DE in the slightest, I just wasn't so high on Kiwi. If our pick had been Tamba Hali or if we had found another DE in the 3rd or fourth round, I wouldn't have minded. But I may have critiqued Kiwi too harshly, considering the knee and shoulder injury he played through this season. But when the Giants PR team uses that as a crutch, sometimes it just sounds like the same old song that we hear almost annually. But I could have expected too much from him when he did not play that well against Boise State, and then went on to have a less than stellar Senior Bowl week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I wrote a pretty good article last year on the prioritization of BPA over need. I wish I had saved it (I save a lot of my original threads/essays), because it was well-received. I think I applied mathematical theory and shit. Dammit, where is Tat_2_Tony when I need him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrahan22_1/2 Posted May 6, 2006 Share Posted May 6, 2006 here's a good article on it i think my opinion on this subject has already been established several times so i don't see the need for saying it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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