Somebody explain this to me... Eli's kneel down

[BronxRik]

or perhaps schiano was just being a douche.

 

we'll probably never know.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17CKHuYx51U

[JMFP]

I'm not going to condone what Schiano did.....but there was still time on the clock, it was a 1 score game, the play was in an area of the field where a turnover could give the Bucs a chance, and football is a contact sport.

[JMFP]

Just double checked the play by play...it appears they did have the timeout left. Perhaps the kneel down and craziness that ensued immediately following the play took 5 seconds and they couldn't get the timeout called?

 

Pretty sure the time ran out on the clock during the play.

[*SDMF*]

If the Giants are saying these guys were goin after their knee's its a dirty play. A NFL Coach said he's never seen this before, wtf else do you need to know its a fucked up play?

[gmenroc]

Pretty sure the time ran out on the clock during the play.

 

I watched on youtube...looks like there's at least 3 seconds, maybe even 4, when Eli hits the ground. There was a bunch of players arguing and whatnot at that point....refs couldn't get the ball spotted...time ran out. Had TB called their final timeout as soon as Eli hit the ground, TB could've lined up to do it again.

[gmenroc]

What was the play exactly? Looked to me as if it was to submarine the linemen.

 

If submarining our linemen caused a disruption in the snap, followed by a fumble recovery for a TD...then yeah, that's what they were trying to do.

 

Injuries are a risk on every play in the NFL...every play. Our lineman were not prepared for it and that's on us....not TB.

[NightFire]

I watched on youtube...looks like there's at least 3 seconds, maybe even 4, when Eli hits the ground. There was a bunch of players arguing and whatnot at that point....refs couldn't get the ball spotted...time ran out. Had TB called their final timeout as soon as Eli hit the ground, TB could've lined up to do it again.

 

I think the best course of action was to end the game after that. I think another down would have been a testy affair.

[Allstarjim]

If submarining our linemen caused a disruption in the snap, followed by a fumble recovery for a TD...then yeah, that's what they were trying to do.

 

Injuries are a risk on every play in the NFL...every play. Our lineman were not prepared for it and that's on us....not TB.

 

While all that is true, it was still very bush league. Local sports radio hosts down here criticized Schiano for that call. And players on the Bucs hinted that they didn't like it, either. Whatever, life goes on. Schiano better start understanding this isn't Rutgers anymore.

[Mr. P]

Pretty sure the time ran out on the clock during the play.

 

not if they called a timeout right when the play was blown dead.

[gmenroc]

While all that is true, it was still very bush league. Local sports radio hosts down here criticized Schiano for that call. And players on the Bucs hinted that they didn't like it, either. Whatever, life goes on. Schiano better start understanding this isn't Rutgers anymore.

 

I don't believe it's necessarily bush league just because it's not widely accepted in the NFL. Had we been up by more than 1 score, then yes, I'd agree wholeheartedly.

[CrazedDogs]

While all that is true, it was still very bush league. Local sports radio hosts down here criticized Schiano for that call. And players on the Bucs hinted that they didn't like it, either. Whatever, life goes on. Schiano better start understanding this isn't Rutgers anymore.

 

I bet they didn't. Schiano sure isn't the one that has to deal with any on field retaliation.

 

I'm not going to run the guy down for being dirty or anything like that, because it was, technically, a clean play. But.... well, no offense intended to anyone, there's a lot of disagreement among reasonable people on this issue, but the more I think about it, I begin to question Schiano's intelligence; IMO the risk/reward calculation on that move is pretty damn easy. Then there's his explanation, 'oh, it worked 4 times at Rutgers'... and then folks go back and look, and it turns out there's only maybe twice that it sort of worked. And one of those times was because Rutgers was offsides. This man, I'm sorry to say, is probably a bit of a dumbass.

 

The games it happened in are cited here, against Pitt and West Virginia in 2009:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/17/rutgers-twice-forced-victory-formation-fumbles-under-schiano/

 

Here's the play-by-play for those games... someone, show me the fumbles:

 

http://espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=292890164&period=4

 

http://espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=293390164&period=4

 

I think I was watching the latter game. I recall West Virginia being all like, what the fuck!, then simply taking a deeper drop on their kneel down the next time.

 

I believe a lot of the pro-Schiano response to this is more borne out of defending the man than in defending the tactic. Among those who have defended it, how many of them actually did the same thing? Gruden was mentioned - I've seen him coach, and I can't recall seeing his teams use the same tactic. Same for Ditka. Who else?

 

This whole thing reminds me of playing Madden way, way back in the day, and getting set straight about using a cheap ass sweep over and over again... because that, among my peers, was bush league. And I think my response was, 'hey, its all in the game', but you know what, I retired the cheap ass sweep anyway, because it truly was pure bush, and I knew it. Anyway... obviously there's no real equivalence there, but I'd be surprised if most of us haven't been in a similar spot at one time or another. Any competition has its rules and, separately, its etiquette, and you breach either at your own peril.

[JackStroud]

Where did the ball wind up

 

I thought Eli had it, after it seemed he was shot out of a cannon........but then I also saw a scrum around the center position with people digging for a ball

 

anybody know?......just curious as to whether they even dislogged the ball at all.......Eli has pretty sure hands on the center exchange unlike Kerry Collins and Kurt Warner (with us) who wet the bed everytime they took the snap.

[fringe]

If submarining our linemen caused a disruption in the snap, followed by a fumble recovery for a TD...then yeah, that's what they were trying to do.

 

Injuries are a risk on every play in the NFL...every play. Our lineman were not prepared for it and that's on us....not TB.

A better play would've been to hold on to a 17 point lead.

[JackStroud]

ahhhhhhh much ado about nothing......I just watched it a few times in real time

 

Eli leaped backwards and fell to the ground clutching the ball to avoid someone falling on him....he had full control of the ball.

In the original broadcast it looked like the collapse of the line propelled him backwards

 

It was pretty clear the way the Bucs packed the line they were coming

 

there was a lot of scrumming at center with Bucs looking for a ball that was not there LOL.....so much for the "we were sorry excuse"

 

The deep back was right behind Eli ready to help if necessary.....I thought at first we were not prepared but there was no Pisarcheck like behavior on this play......the Victory formation which was created by the Miracle in the Meadowlands served its purpose.

 

Giants should have said nothing and let the rest of the world condemn the Bucs and Schiano

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2kCaqbVtpU

[Mr. P]

ahhhhhhh much ado about nothing......I just watched it a few times in real time

 

Eli leaped backwards and fell to the ground clutching the ball to avoid someone falling on him....he had full control of the ball.

In the original broadcast it looked like the collapse of the line propelled him backwards

 

It was pretty clear the way the Bucs packed the line they were coming

 

there was a lot of scrumming at center with Bucs looking for a ball that was not there LOL.....so much for the "we were sorry excuse"

 

The deep back was right behind Eli ready to help if necessary.....I thought at first we were not prepared but there was no Pisarcheck like behavior on this play......the Victory formation which was created by the Miracle in the Meadowlands served its purpose.

 

Giants should have said nothing and let the rest of the world condemn the Bucs and Schiano

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2kCaqbVtpU

 

 

welcome to sunday afternoon jack.

[gmenroc]

A better play would've been to hold on to a 17 point lead.

 

Thank you Captain Obvious.

[JackStroud]

welcome to sunday afternoon jack.

 

I was just saying it was never a deal where it looked like we might lose possesion.......the team performed extremely well given the circumstances

 

BTW, I like this new shaken up O-Line and I like Andre the Giant starting at RB

[JackStroud]

I think when we look back at 2012 as our 1st repeat Lombardi, we will thank Greg Schiano for pointing out to us and reminding us that all is fair in love and war (football)

[Treehugger]

Greg Schiano: I'll call kneel-down play again for Bucs

• By Gregg Rosenthal
  
• Around The League editor
  
• Published: Sept. 20, 2012 at 06:39 p.m.
  
• Updated: Sept. 20, 2012 at 06:48 p.m.
  

 

 

With a few days to think about it, Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Greg Schiano doesn't see anything wrong with trying to force an opposing quarterback to fumble when they line up for the victory formation.

It's a play Schiano will call again.

 

"It's a play we have in our playbook," Schiano told Melissa Stark in an NFL Network interview that will air Sunday on "First on the Field" and "GameDay Morning." "So without giving away any schematic advantage to to our opponent, it's like any other play we have in the playbook. If I think the time is right -- I'll call it."

 

Heck, he almost called it again versus the Giants. Schiano told Stark that he considered calling a timeout against the Giants with two seconds left and calling the play again.

 

"I did (think about taking a timeout)," Schiano said. "But I also saw what was going on out there. And I guess my judgment was to not call it because I didn't want anybody to get ejected, anybody to get penalized, fined. I said, you know what? Better let this go. Because I've done it."

 

A portion of the interview will air Thursday night before the Giants face the Carolina Panthers on NFL Network. Schiano repeatedly pointed out that he caused four fumbles at Rutgers using the play. It's clear that the attention surrounding his decision isn't going to change his approach. We have to admit: It's makes the league more interesting when coaches like Schiano aren't afraid to question some unwritten rules.

 

"Well, I know one unwritten rule: We gotta win," Schiano said. "And if we still have a chance to win, we're playing to win."

[Storm]

I'm totally with Schiano. He's not afraid to burn "useless" timeouts as opposed to leaving them on the field at halftime or the end of the game, either. He just didn't because every Giant lineman threw a hissy fit and started dropping down on the Bucs.

[Allstarjim]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Bucs were out of timeouts. The whole thing with that play was that they needed to recover the fumble, scoop, and score for it to work, with 5 seconds left on the clock when the play started. And like CD said, the risk/reward on that is pretty disparate. Whatever, you can make a case that it's technically possible for the Bucs to have recovered the ball and score on the play. Remember, you have to add some time that would've been taken if there was a loose ball and players going for it, which would've run out the clock almost assuredly. But even still, they submarined themselves into the lower legs of our linemen in a situation that was so beyond reasonable that it would work, and to me that makes it, at best, bush league, at worst, irresponsible.

 

But the main thing is that citing some college QB's fumbling where they didn't actually get the ball back anyway just furthers the point that he doesn't understand he's not coaching college anymore. You aren't going to get the desired outcome from David Baas and Eli Manning.

[gmenroc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Bucs were out of timeouts. The whole thing with that play was that they needed to recover the fumble, scoop, and score for it to work, with 5 seconds left on the clock when the play started. And like CD said, the risk/reward on that is pretty disparate. Whatever, you can make a case that it's technically possible for the Bucs to have recovered the ball and score on the play. Remember, you have to add some time that would've been taken if there was a loose ball and players going for it, which would've run out the clock almost assuredly. But even still, they submarined themselves into the lower legs of our linemen in a situation that was so beyond reasonable that it would work, and to me that makes it, at best, bush league, at worst, irresponsible.

 

But the main thing is that citing some college QB's fumbling where they didn't actually get the ball back anyway just furthers the point that he doesn't understand he's not coaching college anymore. You aren't going to get the desired outcome from David Baas and Eli Manning.

I've read the play-by-play and from what I saw, they only used 2 TOs. So yeah, unless the refs blew it somehow or the play-by-play is wrong, they had one TO remaining.

 

I agree though, that had the ball been fumbled, it was a one play deal...would've needed a forced fumble, fumble recovery, and return for TD. It's extraordinarily unlikely, but so was our scoring 25 pts in the 4th quarter. You play down to the wire. Again, if diving at the legs, to reach through and disrupt the snap is the best way to cause the fumble in that situation, and it's not against league rules, than I have no problem with it because it's giving your team the best chance to win in the given situation.

 

And I'll say again, our O-Line was clearly not ready for it when they should've been had they just looked across the line.

[JackStroud]

Lets hope they beat the Cowboys like a drum, and the Bad Boys break a few legs when Greg stubbornly goes in to the Victory formation (ha, you'll probably never see Schiano team use that formation now)

[Mr. P]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Bucs were out of timeouts. The whole thing with that play was that they needed to recover the fumble, scoop, and score for it to work, with 5 seconds left on the clock when the play started. And like CD said, the risk/reward on that is pretty disparate. Whatever, you can make a case that it's technically possible for the Bucs to have recovered the ball and score on the play. Remember, you have to add some time that would've been taken if there was a loose ball and players going for it, which would've run out the clock almost assuredly. But even still, they submarined themselves into the lower legs of our linemen in a situation that was so beyond reasonable that it would work, and to me that makes it, at best, bush league, at worst, irresponsible.

 

But the main thing is that citing some college QB's fumbling where they didn't actually get the ball back anyway just furthers the point that he doesn't understand he's not coaching college anymore. You aren't going to get the desired outcome from David Baas and Eli Manning.

 

they had a timeout left.

[Mr. P]

Why Greg Schiano was the least popular man in the NFL even before his postgame dustup with Tom Coughlin: http://yhoo.it/OJFG3x