JMFP Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 there is no difference between hall of fame and elite because they are one in the same. I believe there is a difference between Hall of Fame and Elite. I think this is the root of our disagreement. Hall of Fame: Lawrence Taylor Elite: Pat Swilling Hall of Fame: Joe Montana Elite: Aaron Rodgers Hall of Fame: Emmitt Smith Elite: Chris Johnson Hall of Fame: Peyton Manning Elite: Eli Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStroud Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 You can't even compare the Steelers defense to the Patriots defense of 07. The Steelers defense was much, much better. Patriots offense was a lot better than the Steelers offense, though, I'll give ya that. I respectfully disagree this Steeler D could not stop anyone on the ground or through the air I was shocked how ordinary they were..........especially at pressuring the QB.......they got no where near Rodgers We made Vick look very ordinary with a real pass rush, and Pittsburg could have done the same but they barely touched the guy...........It was Vicks feet that beat us......it was Pitts lack of a pass rush that doomed them New England held us to 10 points and a miracle.....they had no superstars on D but they were very well coached and solid......I still maintain it was our pass rush and especially Tuck that enabled us to beat the undefeated NE.....you dont go 18-0 with an ordinary D. Frankly this past one was a pretty boring SB and two of the most ordinary teams to ever make a SB appearance I had no sense of domination by either team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I respectfully disagree this Steeler D could not stop anyone on the ground or through the air I was shocked how ordinary they were..........especially at pressuring the QB.......they got no where near Rodgers We made Vick look very ordinary with a real pass rush, and Pittsburg could have done the same but they barely touched the guy...........It was Vicks feet that beat us......it was Pitts lack of a pass rush that doomed them New England held us to 10 points and a miracle.....they had no superstars on D but they were very well coached and solid......i still maintain it was our pass rush and especially Tuck that enabled us to beat the undefeated NE.....you dont go 18-0 with an ordinary D. Frankly this past one was a pretty boring SB and two of the most ordinary teams to ever make a SB appearance I had no sense of domination by either team. Again, at least SOME of that goes on Aaron Rodgers and his quick strike throw and his ability to make quick decisions....the Giants arguably had as good or better a pass rush as the Steelers and also got no where near Rodgers.... McCarthy is also a great coach and had his guys ready to go to war for him all post season. I agree with you that this is something we desperately lack with Coughlin----his soldiers just aren't well prepared and gung ho for him--- and I would also agree, to a point that neither team "dominated" other teams to get to the Super Bowl, but they did play mistake free football and managed to win a lot of close games. Also, Green Bay didn't trail by more than a touchdown all season. That's amazing and quite telling to Rodgers ability to keep his team in the game. This is something Eli didn't do this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStroud Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Again, at least SOME of that goes on Aaron Rodgers and his quick strike throw and his ability to make quick decisions....the Giants arguably had as good or better a pass rush as the Steelers and also got no where near Rodgers.... McCarthy is also a great coach and had his guys ready to go to war for him all post season. I agree with you that this is something we desperately lack with Coughlin----his soldiers just aren't well prepared and gung ho for him--- and I would also agree, to a point that neither team "dominated" other teams to get to the Super Bowl, but they did play mistake free football and managed to win a lot of close games. Also, Green Bay didn't trail by more than a touchdown all season. That's amazing and quite telling to Rodgers ability to keep his team in the game. This is something Eli didn't do this season. Eli had a season to forget but if Coughlin had not re-shuffled the Oline and put a lame O'hara back in there we would have crushed the Packers, and the Eagles.......from there who knows what mountain the team could have climbed. I have one question for you......if Coughlin could teach Tiki to hold the ball chest high with two hands why in the heck could he not do with these two buffons????? It not logical......he never even tried to teach them that method......just stood there red faced tossin his clipboard..........is he senile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Eli had a season to forget but if Coughlin had not re-shuffled the Oline and put a lame O'hara back in there we would have crushed the Packers, and the Eagles.......from there who knows what mountain the team could have climbed. I have one question for you......if Coughlin could teach Tiki to hold the ball chest high with two hands why in the heck could he not do with these two buffons????? It not logical......he never even tried to teach them that method......just stood there red faced tossin his clipboard..........is he senile? Well, we can't say for sure that Coughlin didn't try...he did at least bench Bradshaw....I think Tiki was a much more coachable player than either Jacobs or Bradshaw. Plus, at the time, Tiki was a seasoned veteran trying to hold on to his job and fumbling was holding him back. I think it was 75% Tiki and 25% Coughlin in that situation. As for why Bradshaw and Jacobs don't want to learn how to hold onto the ball, I can't answer that....maybe they're stubborn, maybe they think switching up the way they carry the ball will interfere with their running style....who knows? I honestly want us to go running back in the first round because neither one of those guys can really get it done the way we need to get it done on the ground. Bradshaw is much better as the number 2 back. Jacobs can't get it done in short yardage even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueInCanada Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Well, we can't say for sure that Coughlin didn't try...he did at least bench Bradshaw....I think Tiki was a much more coachable player than either Jacobs or Bradshaw. Plus, at the time, Tiki was a seasoned veteran trying to hold on to his job and fumbling was holding him back. I think it was 75% Tiki and 25% Coughlin in that situation. As for why Bradshaw and Jacobs don't want to learn how to hold onto the ball, I can't answer that....maybe they're stubborn, maybe they think switching up the way they carry the ball will interfere with their running style....who knows? I honestly want us to go running back in the first round because neither one of those guys can really get it done the way we need to get it done on the ground. Bradshaw is much better as the number 2 back. Jacobs can't get it done in short yardage even. You gotta remember, if Jack doesnt bash Coughlin in every single post he makes then he wouldn't be Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringe Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 You can't even compare the Steelers defense to the Patriots defense of 07. The Steelers defense was much, much better. Patriots offense was a lot better than the Steelers offense, though, I'll give ya that. i don't see how you can be much, much better than 16-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 The argument that the Giants should not have reinserted O'hara back into "his" starting position that he only lost when he got hurt, is as stupid today as it was weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Eli had a season to forget but if Coughlin had not re-shuffled the Oline and put a lame O'hara back in there we would have crushed the Packers, and the Eagles.......from there who knows what mountain the team could have climbed. I have one question for you......if Coughlin could teach Tiki to hold the ball chest high with two hands why in the heck could he not do with these two buffons????? It not logical......he never even tried to teach them that method......just stood there red faced tossin his clipboard..........is he senile? I'm not defending Coughlin but how do you know he didn't try to do it?. What if it's just a case that Tiki learned and they haven't. Ever been to school?. Wonder why all the kids aren't getting A's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStroud Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 The argument that the Giants should not have reinserted O'hara back into "his" starting position that he only lost when he got hurt, is as stupid today as it was weeks ago. Its not "his" position, if he was not 100% and he admitted he was not.............as it turned out he wasnt even close one of the stupidest most selfish things I have ever seen on a football team, by O'Hara and the idiot who stubbornly left him in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStroud Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Well, we can't say for sure that Coughlin didn't try...he did at least bench Bradshaw....I think Tiki was a much more coachable player than either Jacobs or Bradshaw. Plus, at the time, Tiki was a seasoned veteran trying to hold on to his job and fumbling was holding him back. I think it was 75% Tiki and 25% Coughlin in that situation. As for why Bradshaw and Jacobs don't want to learn how to hold onto the ball, I can't answer that....maybe they're stubborn, maybe they think switching up the way they carry the ball will interfere with their running style....who knows? I honestly want us to go running back in the first round because neither one of those guys can really get it done the way we need to get it done on the ground. Bradshaw is much better as the number 2 back. Jacobs can't get it done in short yardage even. trying to hold on to his job............are you serious??? He was pumping out 1500 yd rushing seasons like never before seen in a Giants uniform......he retired because he hated Coughlin He could come back right now and be our #1 but he'd never play for Coughlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Its not "his" position, if he was not 100% and he admitted he was not.............as it turned out he wasnt even close one of the stupidest most selfish things I have ever seen on a football team, by O'Hara and the idiot who stubbornly left him in there If you think that every player that comes back after getting hurt during the season at 100%, then that's as dumb as most of this shit you write on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigblue25 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I respectfully disagree this Steeler D could not stop anyone on the ground or through the air I was shocked how ordinary they were..........especially at pressuring the QB.......they got no where near Rodgers We made Vick look very ordinary with a real pass rush, and Pittsburg could have done the same but they barely touched the guy...........It was Vicks feet that beat us......it was Pitts lack of a pass rush that doomed them New England held us to 10 points and a miracle.....they had no superstars on D but they were very well coached and solid......I still maintain it was our pass rush and especially Tuck that enabled us to beat the undefeated NE.....you dont go 18-0 with an ordinary D. Frankly this past one was a pretty boring SB and two of the most ordinary teams to ever make a SB appearance I had no sense of domination by either team. Pittsburgh had 4 sacks, they were getting to Rodgers. It was their secondary, and turnovers on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 trying to hold on to his job............are you serious??? He was pumping out 1500 yd rushing seasons like never before seen in a Giants uniform......he retired because he hated Coughlin He could come back right now and be our #1 but he'd never play for Coughlin I struggle to believe you actually follow Giants football. It was clear to everyone watching that Tiki Barber had a humongous resurgence when Coughlin came on to coach. Fumbles WAY down (from 6 lost to 2 lost) and more rushing touchdowns scored (from 2 to 13). And he played in two less games that season. Granted, Dayne, Mike Cloud, and Derrick Ward were our backups.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueInCanada Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 If you think that every player that comes back after getting hurt during the season at 100%, then that's as dumb as most of this shit you write on here. You expect more from him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 You expect more from him? I'm expecting more from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueInCanada Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I'm expecting more from you. You want a hug as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 trying to hold on to his job............are you serious??? He was pumping out 1500 yd rushing seasons like never before seen in a Giants uniform......he retired because he hated Coughlin He could come back right now and be our #1 but he'd never play for Coughlin Pumping them out huh? His first time he rushed over 1500 was in 2004. Guess who showed up as coach that year? Next thing will be it was Coughlin pulled the trigger on Plax's gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boohyah Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 You want a hug as well? I have no time for hugs, I'm pretending to be a mod,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksm7 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I believe there is a difference between Hall of Fame and Elite. I think this is the root of our disagreement. Hall of Fame: Lawrence Taylor Elite: Pat Swilling Hall of Fame: Joe Montana Elite: Aaron Rodgers Hall of Fame: Emmitt Smith Elite: Chris Johnson Hall of Fame: Peyton Manning Elite: Eli Manning. the root of the disagreement has to do with the fact that in your desperation to still catagorize eli as an elite nfl QB, you decided this year to create this "difference" between elite and what you define as "beyond elite." the dog sees all of this as an obvious cop out. for three years we debated this. the dog consistently stated that there are three qbs that are elite, or beyond their peers in that position (peyton manning, brees and brady). in all of this time, you argued that eli manning is elite, never once bringing up the whole "beyond elite" or hall of fame level. now, after eli hasn't lived up to your billing of three years ago, now there is a new catagory of beyond elite, elite, good and the rest. that is where the dog has an issue. the reality of it is, any player that is in the hall of fame is going to the one that is elite in his position over his career. there is no beyond elite. it is like saying that the honer student who gets straight A's should actually receive a "beyond A" grade...in the end, whatever. we can agree to disagree on the elite status of eli manning. the dog sees him as a solid starting nfl QB that is capable of winning games, but is by no means elite. you see him as elite, although not quite beyond elite as of yet...quite frankly, the dog has grown tired of the debate at this point. sorry, but elite QBs in their prime are not making consistent mistakes akin to a rookie making their way...that is how the dog sees it. if that changes, and manning spends the second half of his career playing at a high level consistently and producing stats and wins, fine. at this stage, he is not elite...and for the record, the dog wouldn't place rodgers in that catagory yet either. he is moving very close, but he needs to sustain what he has done over the last three years before he can be in the brady/peyton/brees catagory in the dog's opinion. he certainly has all the tools, and quite frankly better tools than eli to work from, but he still has some things to do in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE01 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I believe there is a difference between Hall of Fame and Elite. I think this is the root of our disagreement. Hall of Fame: Emmitt Smith Elite: Chris Johnson Uggghhh....and even Emmitt is borderline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allstarjim Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Elite refers to a QB comparative to his current peers. A Hall of Famer is a player that has performed at an elite level comparative to all players of his time PLUS all the players that have played the game at his position in history. I think it's a fair distinction. A player can play at an elite level in the NFL and not make the Hall of Fame, it's happened many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStroud Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Elite refers to a QB comparative to his current peers. A Hall of Famer is a player that has performed at an elite level comparative to all players of his time PLUS all the players that have played the game at his position in history. I think it's a fair distinction. A player can play at an elite level in the NFL and not make the Hall of Fame, it's happened many times. yeah ask Tiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksm7 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Elite refers to a QB comparative to his current peers. A Hall of Famer is a player that has performed at an elite level comparative to all players of his time PLUS all the players that have played the game at his position in history. I think it's a fair distinction. A player can play at an elite level in the NFL and not make the Hall of Fame, it's happened many times. the dog would agree that it is far from a perfect system, and many don't make the HOF despite playing at an elite level. But here's the thing, you can be a player that plays at an elite level for a year, for a few years...etc...then you are looking at having an elite season. but the players that are elite in their positions are performing at a high level throughout the majority of their careers. brady, peyton manning, and brees (who is the shakiest of the three) fit into that category in the dog's opinion. they are elite in their position. right now no other QB is at that level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMFP Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Elite refers to a QB comparative to his current peers. A Hall of Famer is a player that has performed at an elite level comparative to all players of his time PLUS all the players that have played the game at his position in history. I think it's a fair distinction. A player can play at an elite level in the NFL and not make the Hall of Fame, it's happened many times. Thanks Jim. This is what I am referring to. Apparently the Dog can't accept the fact Hall of Famers at some point actually play in the NFL. This is why, I assume, that the Dog cannot accept the distinction I have made between Eli Manning and future Hall of Fame players such as Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. I would suggest the Dog re-examine the definition of "elite". 1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. 2. ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there. 3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elite Used in the present tense, I believe the description fits. Considering his accomplishments, I think Eli deserves to be considered among the top QBs. However, other than Peyton and Brady, I don't think anyone else currently playing can be considered as Hall of Fame locks. Drew Brees might have a shot, but that remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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