Butler officially gone

[NightFire]

exactly...it starts up front and if you can get pressure on the QB by rushing 4 there isn't an offense in the world that can beat you...just ask the 18 - 1 Patriots of 2007

 

Always has and always will. Decent secondary players are all that are needed which is why I think paying top dollar for a CB/Safety is pointless; the Raiders D is still going to suck with Asmougha. It all starts in the trenches with the DLine and then the LBs. Thank god the Giants organization has understood this for a while now.

[boohyah]

Seriously, where the hell is the whole idea of, "we've a great defensive line, we only need a decent secondary" coming from?. That's ridiculous. If you have good coverage guys in your secondary, it can add 1+2 seconds for the quarterback to hold onto the ball and gives the "amazing" d-line a chance to sack the QB. We've heard of coverage sacks right?

 

If you watched the games last year, it was pretty obvious that Corey Webster was shutdown on defense, he was barely ever thrown towards. Johnson was also picked on less because he has pretty good coverage skills.

[Treehugger]

Or draft order, alot of people dont want Johnson starting just because he is a 7th rounder.

I don't want Johnson starting (yet) because I think he's too jumpy. He seems to be out of position or overcommitted on a regular basis. This may be more a reflection of the scheme rather than the player but that was my impression. I don't think he's a consistant tackler either.

 

I think he has potential and would be happy with him cycling into the D as #3 safety. I just don't think he's our best option as a starter, yet.

[NightFire]

Seriously, where the hell is the whole idea of, "we've a great defensive line, we only need a decent secondary" coming from?. That's ridiculous. If you have good coverage guys in your secondary, it can add 1+2 seconds for the quarterback to hold onto the ball and gives the "amazing" d-line a chance to sack the QB. We've heard of coverage sacks right?

 

If you watched the games last year, it was pretty obvious that Corey Webster was shutdown on defense, he was barely ever thrown towards. Johnson was also picked on less because he has pretty good coverage skills.

 

Everything contributes to the whole but if I had a choice on a pro bowl D-Line or decent secondary (and vice-versa) I would go D-Line every time. Your never going to win a SB without a complete team but paying crazy money for a CB (like the Raiders) is crazier to me then for a lineman (like the Redskins). That's why I am happy that the Giants have coaches and managers that understand that it all depends on the trenches.

[Storm]

Take a look at these.

 

40 best nfl draft picks(notice only 7 are first round players)

 

Its pretty much common knowledge that a lot of first round players turn out to be nothing while the later rounds yield the players who are going to be around a lot longer then most.

 

Am I saying that first round players all turn out to be busts? No, but to say that a players athletic talent plus skill on the field is determined by where he gets drafted is beyond idiotic.

 

Look at our starting O and D and take a look at where players have been taken. Our O-line has two players(O'hara/Sueburt) who were not even drafted along with one taken in the fifth(Diehl) and we have what is the best O-line in the game and not one single first round player on it. Hell Jacobs and Boss were fourth round and fifth round picks and our backup RB going into this year is a seventh(Bradshaw).

 

Then look at our D. We only have two first round players on our entire Defense Phillips and Kiwi and some people are saying we should trade Kiwi with our recent signing. Maybe after this draft we will have a first round LB to join them as well but that has yet to be seen.

 

I don't know what your trying to say Storm this whole "Oh hes a late round pick he sucks blah blah blah" I just dont get it.

 

So what you're saying is scouts know nothing and have no reason for being...All I'm saying is that there's a reason players fall in the draft or aren't highly touted coming out of college. In general, 1st round players have more athletic ability than 7th round players. Obviously there's exceptions, or teams would be filled with only 1st round players, but that can't happen.

And obviously, some first rounders don't live up to the high expectations set for them.

 

And there's a big difference between rounds 1-4 and rounds 5-7.

[Storm]

He shoots, he scores!!!!!

 

Where's Barry Sanders on that list? Tiki Barber is listed on there and he isn't simply because Barber was drafted in the second round?

 

Where's Warren Sapp?

 

And I could go on if I wanted to spend more time thinking of players that should be ahead on that list as opposed to them just throwing as many successful high round picks as they can think of.

 

Two of the best players at their respective positions in years and they aren't even mentioned in that list.

 

That list spent way too much time looking for SOLID 6th and 7th round picks and simply ignored the fact that players like Cato June shouldn't even be on there.

 

BTW, where's LaDanian? Where's Drew Brees(missed first round by 1 pick)?

[Storm]

I don't want Johnson starting (yet) because I think he's too jumpy. He seems to be out of position or overcommitted on a regular basis. This may be more a reflection of the scheme rather than the player but that was my impression. I don't think he's a consistant tackler either.

 

I think he has potential and would be happy with him cycling into the D as #3 safety. I just don't think he's our best option as a starter, yet.

 

:worshippy:

 

In other words, he's a raw talent.

 

Just like every 7th round and undrafted free agent ever.

[xxi-xxv]

Seriously, where the hell is the whole idea of, "we've a great defensive line, we only need a decent secondary" coming from?. That's ridiculous. If you have good coverage guys in your secondary, it can add 1+2 seconds for the quarterback to hold onto the ball and gives the "amazing" d-line a chance to sack the QB. We've heard of coverage sacks right?

 

If you watched the games last year, it was pretty obvious that Corey Webster was shutdown on defense, he was barely ever thrown towards. Johnson was also picked on less because he has pretty good coverage skills.

 

I think the point here is that many of your all time great defenses were not known or led by their secondaries. The 85 Bears were all about the front 7, ditto the 00 Ravens and look at the 86 Giants, they had 2 hall of famers in the front 7, another who IMO should have been one(Banks) and some guys in the secondary in Perry Williams, Mark Collins, Terry Kinard and Kenny Hill, who although were good players were hardly this awesome unit.

 

no doubt that coverage sacks are a good thing to have and help a defense, but more often than not, particularly now with todays pussy ass rules that benefit the WR and Qb its very difficult to build the strength of a pass rush around coverage, its why what the Giants have is such a plus in how toadays game is played along with the rules.

[Money]

This is my least favourite. When Wilson catches you from behind and gets to the WR while you still can't it's not good.

 

In fairness to Butler, he toughed out a hamstring injury throughout the second half and postseason in '07, which obviously affected his mobility.

 

Also in fairness, Wilson is one of the faster safeties in the league. He ran a 4.4 coming out of Tennessee...

[Money]

Seriously, where the hell is the whole idea of, "we've a great defensive line, we only need a decent secondary" coming from?. That's ridiculous. If you have good coverage guys in your secondary, it can add 1+2 seconds for the quarterback to hold onto the ball and gives the "amazing" d-line a chance to sack the QB. We've heard of coverage sacks right?

 

If you watched the games last year, it was pretty obvious that Corey Webster was shutdown on defense, he was barely ever thrown towards. Johnson was also picked on less because he has pretty good coverage skills.

 

Despite our continued heavy investment in the DL, I think our secondary -- led by Webster -- right now has as much talent as, well, ever. We got four legit CBs, two solid and capable safeties, and a FS who has the pedigree of a future star.

[boohyah]

Despite our continued heavy investment in the DL, I think our secondary -- led by Webster -- right now has as much talent as, well, ever. We got four legit CBs, two solid and capable safeties, and a FS who has the pedigree of a future star.

 

We have 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in the secondary, and Johnson was a steal in the 7th, Johnson made it possible for the Ginats to be comfortable letting Wilson go. I doubt Reese is sitting there thinking he can get by with a 2nd class secondary. It doesn't matter what great defenses have done in the past, if you can build up a good DL and good secondary, you should.

[xxi-xxv]

We have 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in the secondary, and Johnson was a steal in the 7th, Johnson made it possible for the Ginats to be comfortable letting Wilson go. I doubt Reese is sitting there thinking he can get by with a 2nd class secondary. It doesn't matter what great defenses have done in the past, if you can build up a good DL and good secondary, you should.

 

I do not think anyone is saying the secondary is bad, some here have wanted to point out the supposed shortcomings of Michael Johnson(unfounded IMO) and I think the idea is fine, you want to make him out to be that bad thats ok, but this d line would be able to make up for those shortcomings if(because they are not)they were actually there.

 

I too think that the current secondary we have rivals any that I have watched in my years of following the team. I certainly do not know how the old Giants secondary would have done with these new rules, but its safe to assume that since they were not as good as this current one, they probably would not have been better with rules that prohibited their abilities. The Giants have a good secondary.

 

I think in todays game, with rules that are so prohibitive of agressive secondary play in terms of how you can defend the reciever its imeprative to have a good pass rush. If one has money to build a front 7 or a secondary they most likely would use it towards the front 7 as that is the ultimate neutralizer for todays passing attacks and rules.

 

The Giants are fortunate, they have a good secondary and front 7.