MVP Talk...

[fringe]

Lets also not forget that Howard plays in a band box ballpark that probably gets him 10-12 homers(see Delgado there this year?) and is an absolute abomination at first base. IMO an MVP is also a productive player in the field. I am not trumpeting for Delgado, but he does have like 2 errors since June 15th or something like that.

 

This is the last I will discuss that glorified DH as the MVP, its clearly Pujols based solely on the fact his numbers are so gaudy and he does not have the protection around him that say Delgado or Howard have.

we're just talking baseball, man. i agree pujols is the guy- i would also take howard on my team in a new york second. i'd trade cain for him.

[Virginia Giant]

double plays are worse. i know you say put the ball in play and shit happens but sluggers hit loud grounders that turn into dp's. if a guy with a good eye strikes out because he didn't get a pitch that he could elevate then you tip your hat to the pitcher-in my opinion.

Thats worse, but honestly I think I'd take a DP over a K with a big hitter up, because even a dp can sometimes be a productive out if there are no outs and a man at 3rd, with a K there is absolutely no way to help the team at all. I understand you POV, and i respect it, but strike outs at Howards rate is just completely unacceptable.

[fringe]

Thats worse, but honestly I think I'd take a DP over a K with a big hitter up, because even a *dp can sometimes be a productive out if there are no outs and a man at 3rd, with a K there is absolutely no way to help the team at all. I understand you POV, and i respect it, but strike outs at Howards rate is just completely unacceptable.

as a manger, with runners on 1st and 3rd- 1 out, would you want your power hitter to choke up and shorten his swing when he has 2 strikes- just put the ball in play? (i'm not challenging you, there's 2 philosophies here, neither is right or wrong)

 

* a dp is never a productive out, that's why you don't get a rbi even if a run scores.

[Virginia Giant]

as a manger, with runners on 1st and 3rd- 1 out, would you want your power hitter to choke up and shorten his swing when he has 2 strikes- just put the ball in play? (i'm not challenging you, there's 2 philosophies here, neither is right or wrong)

 

* a dp is never a productive out, that's why you don't get a rbi even if a run scores.

I'm a Rangers fan, so I dig the long ball..not to mention I rarely get to see games where out power hitters nbeed to choke up to drive in a single run.

 

In a close game, say 3-1 in the late innings with my number 4 hitter up. i want the ball put in play. Odds are fair he hits into a dp, but if he strikes out, that puts the pressure on (usually) a lesser hitter to come through with a base hit. Odds are also fair he hits a sac fly or hits it deep into the whole where the D can get only 1 out.

 

 

When I say productive, I mean scoring runs, not necessarily improving players stats. A DP with no outs and a man on third scores a run, thats a help to the team even though it costs 2 outs.

 

[Plax 4 Prez]

Since you put this in the Mets forum, I assume you only want biased responses. But I will give you my opinion anyway:

 

1. Pujols- by a country mile

 

2. CC Sabathia

 

3. Adrian Gonzalez

 

3. Carlos Delgado (tie)

By far I agree with the Pujols or Sabathia, but Delgado? For that matter what about Ryan Howard or Lance Berkman? I hate both of them, but they both have been as important to thier clubs as Delgado. Delgado is batting .267 with 35 homers, Howard's batting .244 and 44 homers, and Berkman's batting .321 with 28 homers. I love Delgado as much as every other Met fan, but he is not going to get it.

Lets not forget Manny, either.

[fringe]

i know what you meant by productive - i was saying that the baseball gods deem that giving up 2 outs for a run is not and that is why you don't get credited with an rbi. first and 3rd - no out, i'd rather a strikeout than a dp.

and 95% of the time, i want my power hitter (not that we have one) swinging away.

[Ggirl]

By far I agree with the Pujols or Sabathia, but Delgado? For that matter what about Ryan Howard or Lance Berkman? I hate both of them, but they both have been as important to thier clubs as Delgado. Delgado is batting .267 with 35 homers, Howard's batting .244 and 44 homers, and Berkman's batting .321 with 28 homers. I love Delgado as much as every other Met fan, but he is not going to get it.

Lets not forget Manny, either.

Nice to see someone is able to put their heart aside and reason with their head. Aside from that Manny statement.

 

Frankly, my answer was not purely based on my love for the Phillies or Ryan Howard, but more on the statement made about how stats get you the MVP award. Hate him or not, Ryan Howard leads BOTH leagues with his numbers. What good does an impressive batting average do if you don't have the things that count like RBI's and HR? Sure Howard spent alot (too much,IMO) of time striking out and not being the producer he is supposed to be. All you Delgado fans know he spent his share of time on the non productive side.

[xxi-xxv]

Pujols is putting up steroid era numbers in an age of testing. He is the clear cut MVP.

[Plax 4 Prez]

Nice to see someone is able to put their heart aside and reason with their head. Aside from that Manny statement.

 

Frankly, my answer was not purely based on my love for the Phillies or Ryan Howard, but more on the statement made about how stats get you the MVP award. Hate him or not, Ryan Howard leads BOTH leagues with his numbers. What good does an impressive batting average do if you don't have the things that count like RBI's and HR? Sure Howard spent alot (too much,IMO) of time striking out and not being the producer he is supposed to be. All you Delgado fans know he spent his share of time on the non productive side. :ph34:

And that's what I'm trying to say to everyone. Delgado had too horrible of a first half of the season to get the MVP. He honestly doesn't deserve to even be considered in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. To me it's only up to Sabathia and Pujols, and Pujols gets my vote.

[fringe]

And that's what I'm trying to say to everyone. Delgado had too horrible of a first half of the season to get the MVP. He honestly doesn't deserve to even be considered in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. To me it's only up to Sabathia and Pujols, and Pujols gets my vote.

no wonder the mets forum impeached you

[fringe]

Nice to see someone is able to put their heart aside and reason with their head. Aside from that Manny statement.

 

Frankly, my answer was not purely based on my love for the Phillies or Ryan Howard, but more on the statement made about how stats get you the MVP award. Hate him or not, Ryan Howard leads BOTH leagues with his numbers. What good does an impressive batting average do if you don't have the things that count like RBI's and HR? Sure Howard spent alot (too much,IMO) of time striking out and not being the producer he is supposed to be. All you Delgado fans know he spent his share of time on the non productive side.

i know he doesn't wear a p on his shirt so he's under your radar but take a gander :

 

BA HR RBI OBP SLG

.360 33 101 .465 .650

 

[xxi-xxv]

i know he doesn't wear a p on his shirt so he's under your radar but take a gander :

 

BA HR RBI OBP SLG

.360 33 101 .465 .650

 

technically Blu he does wear a P on his shirt, albeit on the back, but a P nonetheless

[Plax 4 Prez]

no wonder the mets forum impeached you

I was impeached because I'm too beautiful. Yeah, baby, yeah.

[Plax 4 Prez]

I'm still a Qualified Love-Machine, just don't tell my girl. False advertising is not my thang.

[Virginia Giant]

i know what you meant by productive - i was saying that the baseball gods deem that giving up 2 outs for a run is not and that is why you don't get credited with an rbi. first and 3rd - no out, i'd rather a strikeout than a dp.

and 95% of the time, i want my power hitter (not that we have one) swinging away.

To be honest, I'm probly not the guy to be debating the intriquicies of small ball. I just have the belief that it's always better for the ball to be in play, for me a strikeout is a useless out.

 

 

But, of course I'd prefer the K over the DP, thats common sense, but the odds of shortening up and hitting into a DP are less than striking out while swinging for the fences. Or so I think, I might be way off on the percentages.

[fringe]

we'd both prefer neither of those events to happen. my feeling is that while high average hitters look for balls they can put in play... sluggers for the most part look for balls they can drive. they are mistake hitters essentially. naturally, they are going to strike out more because they may get only one pitch that they feel is hittable during an at bat. with runners on, they should be a bit less selective and i think based on howard's rbi total, he must be.

there are exceptions to this, of course. vlad, for example, will hit anything from his nose to his toes.

[Virginia Giant]

we'd both prefer neither of those events to happen. my feeling is that while high average hitters look for balls they can put in play... sluggers for the most part look for balls they can drive. they are mistake hitters essentially. naturally, they are going to strike out more because they may get only one pitch that they feel is hittable during an at bat. with runners on, they should be a bit less selective and i think based on howard's rbi total, he must be.

there are exceptions to this, of course. vlad, for example, will hit anything from his nose to his toes.

Now why you gotta bring up a guy hitting a career .999 against the Rangers? :brooding:

 

 

 

 

 

Vlad is a monster. For the record, I agree with everything you've said.

[fringe]

isn't everyone hitting .900 against the rangers?

[Ggirl]

what's the "umm" for? please do your pondering before writing your sentence.

BTW~that was kinda mean.

 

I imagine I could have ended the sentence with "duh". Better?

[fringe]

BTW~that was kinda mean.

 

I imagine I could have ended the sentence with "duh". Better?

not sure, both are equally mean and unnecessary, but i forgive you.

[Virginia Giant]

isn't everyone hitting .900 against the rangers?

Together, the Giants and Rangers would make a fearsome team.

[fringe]

Together, the Giants and Rangers would make a fearsome team.

damn straight- we could use some thump. the splash hit sign hasn't moved since barry left.

[Ggirl]

not sure, both are equally mean and unnecessary, but i forgive you.

[Allstarjim]

And that's what I'm trying to say to everyone. Delgado had too horrible of a first half of the season to get the MVP. He honestly doesn't deserve to even be considered in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. To me it's only up to Sabathia and Pujols, and Pujols gets my vote.

 

 

You do realize the fallacy of your argument, don't you? First of all, Delgado did have 14 HR's and 45 RBI in the first half, not exactly "too horrible". His BA wasn't the greatest, but to me BA is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. And by saying that Delgado isn't deserving because of a bad first half and then in the next breath saying that it's between Sabathia and Pujols in the next is what really gets stuck in my craw, considering the flack I've been getting over this thread. On one hand Delgado is disregarded for a bad first half, but Sabathia WASN'T EVEN IN THE NATIONAL LEAGUE IN THE FIRST HALF. So you are considering Sabathia SOLELY for his contributions in the second half.

 

XXI, take a look at the Cardinals lineup, they are pretty good. I think the Mets are better, but not by much, and Pujols has BETTER protection with Ludwick hitting behind him than Delgado. Ludwick is a .290 hitter with just as many HR's and RBI's as Pujols, btw. To me, people fall in love with the combination of Pujols batting average and power, which is easy to do, but as was mentioned, it's not the "Best Stats Award". Pujols is the best hitter in baseball. But the Cards are a 4th place team. Maybe I can vote for a Josh Hamilton on a team that is not making the playoffs, because the Rangers really would've been in last place without him, and his season has been so special and dominant, but I cannot vote for Pujols, while special, he hasn't shown great value this year because he's on a FOURTH place team. It's not that I don't think Pujols isn't a strong candidate. I do. But Delgado has been more valuable this year to the team's winning.

 

Think I'm just a homer? Well, a respected baseball man and Washington Nationals broadcaster, Don Sutton, said in his broadcast last night that Delgado deserves consideration and that without him, the Mets are probably a 3rd place team. That means not only behind the Phillies, but behind the Marlins as well. I agree with Sutton.

 

Lastly, Ggirl, I think you are not too far off with Howard. A few weeks ago I would've poo pooed Howard as an MVP candidate because of all of the K's (which are, as stated, unproductive outs). Btw, a guy can work a count before he hits into a productive out. The whole argument of a strikeout being a productive out if you see a lot of pitches is dumb. He has struck out way to much. But down the stretch, in a tight pennant race, Howard has come up HUGE, and has been the difference hitting game winning home runs (as he did tonight) in about half a dozen games just in the last few weeks. He is clearly leading his team right now, and if the Phillies do end up in the playoffs, it will largely be due to Howard's heroics. And that is my point. An MVP is first and foremost a guy who steps up and carries his team to the postseason. Delgado has clearly done that, Howard is doing that. Those guys have been big difference makers on their teams, and without either of them, the Marlins win the division.

 

A guy like Pujols or Hamilton should win the MVP award when there's no clear cut guy for a playoff contender that has been the difference maker for their team, especially in August and September. In the American League, I believe we have that scenario with Hamilton, and he should win the award. A case could've been made for Carlos Quentin before he got hurt and is missing all those games down the stretch, but I digress.

 

In the NL, I think it's between Sabathia, Delgado, Howard, and Manny. Manny has been so incredibly good in helping his team rise up to the top of the division it's ridiculous. I would only mark him down because he's only been doing it for a month and a half (although he has been the difference in that month and a half).

 

Since I posted this, Delgado has been getting more recognition has a viable MVP candidate, indicating that my post wasn't "dumb". But I will shout it to the mountain tops that Pujols, while awesome, hasn't been the most valuable.

[fringe]

if david wright were batting 360 with 101 rbi in 4th place you'd be singing a whole different tune, jimmy boy. you are definitely a homer. but that's ok, just try not to be such a wordy one.