LorfTVP

The sad thing is that these aren't caricatures.

it's all set up to get clemens. I never said the Yankees rotiation is better than the Sox. I just wanted to express my opinion that it's closer than you think.

What I've been hearing is that the Yankees have no patience for June or July because they need starting pitching options now.

One thing that I'm sure we can all agree on is that Matsuzaka is a lot more pleasing to the eyes than Igawa.

vs.

Alvin, Simon, Theodore, and Kei Igawa.

I told you so.

"Regardless of who's here, there's going to be questions in our rotation," Cashman said. "They're fair questions."

I'd like to throw in a vote for the beehive.

You don't have the SF Giants in your top 11 lorf?

Err, apparently I don't. I was going by Lowry's statistics last year but now that I check I see that he's capable of much more. Morris will never be the same again though...and the fact that I didn't even know who the fifth starter was. I think that the pitchers in the NL West are going to have a field day with every team except the Rockies having exceptional rotations though.

Before he got injured last year he was pitching well, good WHIP, save for giving up a couple of HRs. But alas, Foulke will still be remembered for being one of those hallowed 25 players who changed history. Watch, when he returns, he'll get a standing ovation.

They also have Livan.

I know, who could be good, but the way he's been pitching of late made me decide not to include him in a top 1-anything. I mean, if this was the Livan of old, this could be a much better rotation.

surely you can't be serious.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.

i voted tigers and dodgers because they are both the MOST PROVEN. To me thats very important. I dont want to hear about potential or talent. Those guys go out and do it.

I'm not going to argue with that but I have some worries about Verlander's decline at the end of last year (the Tigers babied him on purpose but he still declined a bit, his splits are pretty severe). The fact that that is the biggest question is a pretty big factor though. I had a bit of bias in voting for the Red Sox but I think they're definitely up there in the AL. The White Sox hurt themselves by trading both McCarthy and Garcia though...they've had a killer 5 aces the last couple of years. I voted Dodgers as well though, nice to see we're on the same page there.

This is a big IF, but IF the BoSox rotations performs even near what they are capable of, than they are far and away the best rotation in the AL.

 

As for the NL, the Pads top 3 is scary good and could carry the back 2 all season in that park.

I will get my lone homerism in. While the Rangers will never compete ERA for ERA with the "great" rotations in the league, expect to see a remarkable group effort at the back end. McCarthy, Loe, Tejada, Koranka, Rheneker all have extended big league experience and have played great at times. Add Wilson and Rupe, who have alot of PT in the bigs and we have potentially an endless supply of fresh young arms to interchange as the season goes along.

I think the Dodgers match the Padres in the NL but if the Padres get Wells, which they have the obvious inside track on, then they will be even better. I have a lot of hope for the Red Sox rotation...but who knows.

you know while we're on the topic. I dont think this trade is that bad for Arizona. And I dont want to hear anyone go, "i wouldn't offer a hamburger for Johnson." Well thats cool but the Giants, Angels, Mariners, Padres, and D-Backs were interested. The D-Backs are already taking a hit b/c the Giants got Zito. Then to boot the Padres already signed Maddux and are offering Linebrink and a prospect for Johnson.

 

Well now the D-Backs have to offer a major league reliever and more prospects. They gave Vizcaino, who may hurt a tad but it's not a big deal to lose him, and a few decent prospects . They got Doug Davis. Now they'll have Randy Johnson.

 

They were 24th last year in ticket sales. Yes, some teams dont have money and cant sell tickets. They're probably going to sign Johnson to another year for 10 mil. So basically they're giving him 2 years 24 mil. Now step back and look at the money Suppan, Marquis, Meche, Lilly, Eaton etc are getting. If the D-backs got one of them then they would be stupid.

 

Johnson still posted a 1.24 whip last year holding opponents to a .250 BA in the AL East. His ERA was bad, but I doubt it gets worse in the NL West. No offense, but the NL West doesn't compare to the AL East (and it's not just because there's no DH). Johnson still struck out 172 guys last year. He cant dominate good teams (7.17 ERA against the Red Sox, 14.04 against Toronto, 11.46 against the Mets), but he can pitch well against bad teams. I think if healthy he will have success in the NL. I dont see why he cant have an ERA inbetween 3.30-3.99 next year with a low whip and 185+ strikeouts. Lets not forget his back was a problem last year, which hurt his abilities. But if he can recover I dont see why this is a bad trade for the D-Backs.

I agree, the trade does work for the Diamondbacks and it gives them a slightly formidable 1-3 of Webb, Johnson, and Davis to go against the strong rotations in the division. I think what most people are saying is that it's outrageous that you were able to get so much for Johnson. It's a shame though, the Giants and Diamondbacks are doing the same thing...while these acquisitions still help the team, I really do feel like they're more for ticket sales than anything else.

Okay, try to be fair minded and look at who each team has to offer. Some of these teams aren't even worth mentioning.

If I had to give the top eleven starting rotations in no particular order, it would probably be:

Boston Red Sox

New York Yankees

Chicago White Sox

Detroit Tigers

Cleveland Indians

Oakland Athletics

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim

Chicago Cubs

Los Angeles Dodgers

Arizona Diamondbacks

San Diego Padres

granted he isn`t worth 126 million dollars. (is anyone worth that much money for playing a sport.)

What if Jesus played baseball?

why not? the royals are tied for 1st now.

So you're just assuming I'm being sarcastic now?

Barry Zito an average pitcher?

 

What are guys like Matt Clement and Josh Beckett then?

Haha, I love fights. I'm willing to back up my claim that the Giants have bad management...spending way too much money on veterans at the end of their careers instead of trying to go the young route. I guess they have to give it one last hurrah for as long as they have Bonds but they're soon gonna start falling to the prospect led Diamondbacks and the Dodgers and Padres who are in much better shape. I'm sorry, but the Giants farm system is in poor shape and what they're doing now isn't helping...signing four type A and a type B free agent.

Zito is far from average but he isn't nearly as good as Boras makes him out to be. Every single "expert" has given so many reasons why this is one of the worst deals in Giants history...honestly, they shelled out a record amount, the highest contract EVER for a pitcher for Barry Zito. He's a good pitcher, I'll say that, but not worth that sort of money or commitment. I really think the Giants should rebuild as soon as Bonds is gone but the presence of Zito isn't going to help that.

And Clement is average while Beckett has great talent but no brains. The average era for starters normally evens out at about 4.50.

you'd have to put the red sox in that group for paying 100 mill for a prayer pitcher.

I'm just waiting to see your face when our prayers are answered.

And Plow, you know for a fact that these guys are above average so stop trying to look cool in front of blunatic and actually look at things logically.

Granted it only takes a look at the Yankees shortcomings, I feel like this recent ESPN article supports my argument: Uncertain Times

How about Gil Meche, Odalis Perez, and Luke Hudson?

OH RED SOX FANS, DO NOT SIT HERE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE AND TELL ME THE DIAMONBACKS GAVE THE YANKEES A GIFT. I'LL TELL YOU A FUCKING GIFT. THEY GAVE YOU SCHILLING FOR CASEY FOSSUM AND ASKED THE YANKS FOR SORIANO ANNNNDDDD NICK JOHNSON.

Haha, they did, and that was quite the steal. Thing is, Schilling was convinced to come here as well. But despite that, you got a deal as well. All in all, the Diamondbacks management is up there with that of the Nationals, Pirates, and now Giants...not good at all.

An ok trade? As someone mentioned earlier, it's astounding that the Yankees actually got living, breathing humans in return for this guy. He's an old mess, and he's due to make 16 million dollars next year, 15 million of it being paid by a team whosde management should be embarrassed. This is a coup for the Yankees.

Yah, the Diamondbacks were willing to screw themselves over to get Johnson and boost their own ticket sales. I think that the Yankees are some damn lucky bastards. I don't want you to get Clemens at all.

Diamondbacks spend 15 million, Luis Vizcaino and minor leaguers RHP Steven Jackson, RHP Ross Ohlendorf and OF Alberto Gonzalez to get Randy Johnson...that's pretty much what it boils down too. Ucks.

lorf both teams have questions, the red sox might have an edge, the yankees might have an edge. Who knows? All I know is both teams put a lot of pressure on their pitchers both coming from the media and the fans. The Yankees have 3 guys who can handle this at their 1-3 starters. The red sox 1-3 starters have one guy (schilling) who can handle the pressure.

 

There are a lot of questions, and it's close. I just didn't like how you treated the Yankees rotation like crap.

 

Now here's some food for thought... How will the performaces of the red sox pitchers be effected by the bulpen you possess. As oppose to the yankees who only need 6 inning pitchers?

That's true, our bullpen will be a problem, but we do have a lot of depth. We just added Pineiro as a closer candidate and/or long relief. Is your bullpen set? Who is in it exactly?

the new and improved Zito Hudson Mulder???

 

Well, the Big Three will be really hard to match...considering their dominance and length of time together. But here's to hoping! It's my hope our trio of Beckett, Papelbon, and Matsuzaka will match you at least.

hi, i'm from boston, when we win it's skill, when you win it's luck.

Haha, nice try. Okay, Plow, this time I'm going to try my best to be judgemental on both sides...note the key word is try.

Mike Mussina had a resurgence last year in which he posted his best numbers in three years and barely surpassed his career averages. While there are questions about his age, I think that a veteran pitcher like Mussina is the most likely pitcher on the Yankees staff to repeat his numbers. While his stats bumped a bit after the All Star break, Mussina will continue to pitch well.

Chien-Ming Wang, as I said before is a groundball pitcher. I'm not saying that there's a guarantee he'll do worse than this year but that there is fluctuation in the performance of sinkerballers. As long as he can continue to get double plays with a good defense behind him, he can get by with his 1.31 WHIP, .277 BAA and 76 Ks, but as we've seen before, performance can fluctuate based on defense. Last year he had the second most double plays after Jake Westbrook, another sinkerball pitcher who despite getting three more double plays had a 4.17 era to Wang's 3.63. He struck out about 30 more batters but had a WHIP ten points higher. Granted the Indians aren't known for their spectacular infield defense. I think that Wang can repeat considering that A-rod has to be better defensively and a new first baseman will get more balls. He did nearly double his IP last year as well, adding on 100 innings. Actually, including AAA starts, he had 150 innings that year and added on 60...so that injury risk may not be as big as I had thought.

Andy Pettitte is coming off of a great second half despite his mediocre era last year. I'm still looking at the fact that the difference between the AL and NL has never been so apparent as it was the last couple of years. His return to the AL may not be the best, at least I have doubts he'll match his NL numbers in his return to the AL. He had a 6.56 era against the AL in 4 starts last year and a 6 era in his 7 overall starts vs. the AL in his three years in Houston. I'm not saying that this is a guarantee he'll falter but that it's some food for thought. I see a low 4 era for Pettitte in his return to the AL because of the strength of the league. He does have some of that Yankee magic though so we'll see if that works.

Kei Igawa is a flyball pitcher who only has two good pitches and tops out in the high 80s. If he can pinpoint his pitches maybe he'll be effective but I don't have too much hope. I would've been angry at the Sox if they got Igawa, not gonna lie...plus he looks like a chipmunk but that's besides the point.

And as for your final spot, you're either throwing in Pavano who flopped in his short time pitching in the AL, or a prospect who is, in most respects, unproven in the majors. Pavano has talent but he'll have to not only shake off the multiple injuries but also the ire of Yankees fans and he has to face the AL East after pitching his entire career in the pre-Mets NL East. One of your prospects could burst onto the scene but at least expect some growing pains and realize that any good performances will be lucky.

Now for the Boston Red Sox.

Curt Schilling is coming off of a comeback season after an injury plagued one in which he even closed for the Red Sox. His K/BB was 6.54, dwarfing Santana's 5.21. The next closest in the majors is Mussina at 4.91 and then Oswalts's 4.37. Those are some damn good pitchers up there and Schilling's ratio is way up top. He allowed more hits than usual last year which could either be year to year fluctuation or a sign of breaking down. Regardless, this is Schilling's final year before he retires, or so he says, so we'll see how he ends up. I still think his statistics are great and with a ratio like that, his era won't be above 4 unless every hit he gives up his a HR. With that said, there are always injury risks with age but in every other respect, Schilling has been healthy.

Josh Beckett can't possibly be worse than he was last year and I seriously doubt he'll allow more HRs, in fact his rate should drop considerably. He's a young guy who has the pitches and the ability to pitch well, just not the intelligence as of now. At the worst he'll match this year's performance, but with a new pitching coach and realization of what he was doing wrong along with less pressure and experience in the AL East, I'm hoping he'll pitch better. I do realize that he completely owned the NL last season and without those numbers his era rises considerably, but I have confidence in him.

Daisuke Matsuzaka is one of the best pitchers in the history of Japan and has a chance to be one of the best in the world. You can't say not to look at what scouts say about Matsuzaka and then talk about what scouts say about Igawa. He has experience dealing with pressure from the Japanese press as a national treasure. The same thing with Igawa will plague Matsuzaka in the majors, bigger hitters. The highest projection I've seen for him is a 4.01 era. Most people who have seen him are sure of success, as am I, but there is always the chance that he'll struggle solely because of the dominance of AL hitters.

Jonathon Papelbon will most likely be pitching a career high in IPs next year after throwing only 68 innings as the Red Sox closer last season with a shoulder injury ending his season. His IP totals from year to year have gone 129, 148, 68. I expect the Red Sox to be wary with how long they'll let him stay in and give him the Verlander and Felix Hernandez treatments of last season. He has a good history of starting in the minor leagues as well, though limited experience in triple A. He obviously won't pitch as well as he did last year but if the Sox keep a check on his IP I expect some sort of success. Granted, all the worsts could come to reality, he'll be knocked around or hitters seeing his pitches multiple times in a game will give 'em a chance to knock 'em out. I actually have a lot of confidence in Varitek in calling games though, so that also gives the Sox a slight edge in my opinion. The difference between Papelbon and Rasner and Karstens is a better record of success in the minors, especially in strikeout rates, and experience in the majors as Rasner and Karstens still maintain rookie status.

Tim Wakefield is simply put, consistent. He'll never match 2002's sub-3 era again (though what a year, Pedro, Lowe, and Wakefield all with sub-3 eras) but he'll be at league average with his knuckleball floating about. Sometimes he's on, sometimes he's doomed, but there's nothing that really changes in his stats from year to year. Tossing out 2002's outlier, in the last five seasons, he's had an ERA between 3.90 and 4.87 and a WHIP between 1.23 and 1.38 and a BAA between .245 and .264. Other than age, there's no reason to expect anything different.

There, Plow, I tried my best. What do you have to say about that?

Ok if you want to look at the glass half full, then take a look at 4 of your starters. Now you're going to be shocked because the only steady guy I see in your rotation is Wakefield.

 

There was talk about Schilling retiring. He's not the same dominant pitcher he once was. Ever since his ankle surgery he's just been pretty good. Nothing special. He's going on 41 years old with a bad ankle. He doesn't throw as hard as he once did and teams have found ways to knock him around a bit.

 

Matzuzaka... dont get me started. You dont have a clue what this guy is going to do. You can show me all those projections that you want, but he's still coming from japan to the major leagues. Not only that he's coming to the AL East where every team has 19 games against 4 other teams that can all hit. He's going to be seen as some type of savior who cost the team 100 mil to get. The media is going to be all over him. His whole country is going to be looking on to see what kind of player he's going to be. He's got a ton of pressure on him and he still hasn't thrown a pitch yet.

 

Beckett... this one is my favorite. You can point to talent all you want, it's not a question he has it. But the guy is more of a thrower than a pitcher. He's going to have to get smart, and he's not smart. His last season didn't fool anybody. Here are the teams he pitched more than 15 IP to last year. 20 IP against the Yankees with a 9.45 ERA. 29 IP against the Blue Jays with a 6.21 ERA. 17.1 IP against Oakland with a 6.23 ERA. 20.2 IP against Tampa Bay with a 5.03 ERA. 22 IP to Kansas City with a 2.46 ERA. The only team he had success against was the one he could blow his fastball by. My favorite part about this guy is that he could be one of those players that pitches the big game against the last place team and doesn't even show up for the tough games. Yeah yeah yeah keep citing what he did in 2003 against the Yankees. That was against a Yankees team that was tired out and all those pitchers pitched well against us. Now the guy is pitching to tougher lineups and the momentum isn't there that he once had.

 

Papelbon I could see as being a decent starter. Idk how confident you can be on a full year at a high level from this guy though. He hurt his shoulder towards the end. Thats never a good sign. Do you really think he's going to pitch a whole year and dominate. To me he's going to be solid but I dont see him dominating people. Escpecially after the league started figuring him out last year in the second half. I mean like you said Lorf, when a young guy has only started 3 games, who knows. He's got a ton of talent though, but once again he's more of a wild card.

 

So, this is what I am going to ask your Lorf. Where the fuck is the consistency and stability here? What have these guys proven? They have proven nothing except that they have talent. Mussina and Pettitte have been proving year after year they can handle pressure in New York and give you consistent stuff. Wang was 2nd in AL Cy Young voting last year. There are 3 guys right there who have proven things. Igawa is talented and scouts have him projected as a back of the rotation guy in the majors. Well isn't that where he is on the Yankees? Yeah he hasn't proven anything but we still have a bunch of young guys with talent in the minors. Pavano when healthy was a solid pitcher for a bit for the Yankees. We have depth and a balance of proven guys with guys with talent. I dont see your balance.

 

The sox rotation is good, but you cant say any Yankee fan is an idiot for thinking the Yanks' rotation isnt as good. There are more questions on guys in your rotation then there are for the Yanks rotation. We're worried about 2 guys. Our 4,5 starters. Yet we have like 6 candidates for the job. You're worried about your 2,3,4 starters and you have 4 (Lester is included if he comes back) candidates for the job

Haha, hilarious. Let's see, Mike Mussina is coming off of his best season in years but he is getting older, I believe that was your same excuse for Schilling. Schilling started off hot, but after that, was actually pretty consistent. He once again had the best K/BB ratio in the majors, mustering with it a 3.97 era and a 1.22 WHIP. He has some amazing ratios still. There was never talk about him retiring last year, he said concretely that this season, 2007, would be his last and that he wouldn't pull a Clemens. Schilling is also one of the smartest pitchers in all of baseball, no Pedro, but he is completely capable of at least matching last year's statistics. Mussina matched his stats of the last year after the all star break, adding a full run to his era. It was a great deal for the Yankees to resign him but I think there are questions of whether this resurgence is for real or not despite his history of success.

Pettite has proven that he can handle New York in the past but it's a different AL East now. Pettite is coming off of all of ONE good year in the NL. I really am interested in seeing his return to the thumping AL, most particularly the AL East. In his three years in Houston, Pettite, battle injuries which could pop up again...for his age, he isn't the healthiest person in the world.

Chien-Mien Wang was considered one of the luckiest pitchers in the AL according to statistics from DIPS and LIPS, as I argued. I still think a groundball pitcher can vary from year to year no matter how good he is. Look at Jason Johnson, look at Lowe...just to name a few. I mean, odds are your defense will be better and A-rod can't possibly be as bad and your new first baseman will catch more than Giambi ever could. But with sinkerballers, with so many balls hit along the ground, so many can get through, and the lack of strikeouts can hurt. There's an injury risk as well, with Wang going from 116 yo 218 innings pitched. I know you guys love him but all I'm saying is that there are risks with sinkerballers.

I'll argue more but right now I need to jump on a bus to Boston...but as soon as I get home, more will come.